Leadership & Mindfulness: A Conversation with Aneace Haddad, Executive Coach & Advisor to the C-Suite

What do you get when you integrate your experience as a two-time CEO into Executive Coaching?  An incredibly rich, thoughtful, and effective perspective.
 
Aneace Haddad brings so many thoughtful, leadership insights to the this episode!

He talks to us about integrating mindfulness into our leadership, teams, and workplace, but he also stresses the importance of listening and embracing your influence (regardless of title or role). 

Aneace also shares some insights from his recent book: The Eagle That Drank Hummingbird Nectar: A Novel About Personal Transformation in Business Leaders.

Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose.

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Transcript

Dr. Leah OH: 0:00

Aneace Haddad is an executive coach and an advisor to the C suite. He's also the former CEO of two tech companies, but found himself really drawn to the people side of work. He's also written a recent and lovely book, the eagle that drink hummingbird nectar, a novel about personal transformation and business leaders. And today we chat about integrating mindfulness into your leadership, your team and your work. Hello, and welcome to the communicative leader hosted by me, Dr. Leah Omilion-Hodges, my friends call me Dr. OH. I'm a professor of communication and leadership communication expert, and the communicative leader. We're working to make your work life what you want it to be. So nice. Thank you for joining us today. And before we dive into the ins and outs of your view of mindful leadership, can you tell us a bit about yourself? So what brought you into a career and a passion for leadership?

Aneace Haddad: 1:03

Great, okay. Thank you, Leah, wonderful meeting you this morning or this evening, your time. I came at this late in life in a very roundabout manner. I was a tech CEO for most of my career, built a payments software company in the south of France grew to 30 countries sold it in 2007. Just before the global financial crisis, I thought I was going to be a serial entrepreneur. But I discovered I liked people more than computers. And it was just it was quite a quite a difficult transition to let go of all that. And in that same period, I was meditating a lot more practicing mindfulness. And then and then at some point, by the time I was 50, so 2010, just two, three years after selling the company, it all kind of came together as a more sustainable leadership style. By combining mindfulness and not so much the meditation part of mindfulness, but much more of the self awareness. involved in that. So roundabouts, I could go on a long time on that. Yeah.

Dr. Leah OH: 2:22

Yeah, no, I love this, you know, it talks about the organic nature of leadership and how there is not a one size fits all approach. It's figuring out who you are, at that moment, and how to be the best

Aneace Haddad: 2:36

version. Yeah. And, and interestingly, at the time, when I was going through that it was still a bit esoteric for a lot of leaders. When I was running my company, I had no coach, it just wasn't a really big part of culture that the corporate culture have coaching. Now, everybody has a coach. And, and something has shifted, especially over the last few years, maybe with COVID, and a lot more complexity. It's like, leaders have discovered that they need to be far more self aware than in the past. They need to, they need to be far more cognizant of their own emotions. How they're doing how their people are doing, not not only on a wellness perspective, but really, what are we sensing as a group? How are we responding? How's our level of trust? Between each other at the top? Ownership? This is a really recently How do I take ownership beyond simply my functional responsibilities? And how do I interact with my peers? On a mindfulness that's needed?

Dr. Leah OH: 3:56

Yes, exactly. I love it as a leadership communication scholar, it's fun to see people recognizing the power of like you're saying intention and communication, and how they impact others. And you know, we have to address these emotions, not let them lead the lead the lead the way.

Aneace Haddad: 4:18

Perfect. I'm noticing just as an anecdote, when you ask people, executives, especially how are you feeling? What what do you feel about that? They say? Good. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Good or bad? Yep. We're starting to get a lot more I'm noticing people kind of on their own, become more discerning and what the shows that they indicate and yeah, and

Dr. Leah OH: 4:46

feeling able to share that as well in the workplace. Yeah, yeah. Love it. Perfect. So we know a bit about your background, your passion for leadership is clear. Can you help us understand your take on mindful leadership? So how do you conceptualize it? How is it different from maybe other approaches to leading?

Aneace Haddad: 5:11

Ai. So my particular approach on that, and I'm not talking like a generalized approach of mindful leadership, my particular approach and the kind of work that I do is that it is a form of leadership that allows us to have a much more holistic view of who we are in the organization and who we are. In the world. There's a lot of overlap and personal life, a lot of huge amount of overlap and impact on on society. So there's a sense of once we become mindful of the impact that we're having, and we go beyond simply our functional remit. Yeah, for me, mindful leadership touches into all of that. It's so much more more simple word that I've often heard executives say it's just being more human. I've heard that expression a lot from people that wouldn't use the term mindful leadership. Just bringing being more human. Yeah, allowing myself to be more human, less of a robot. Yeah. Especially with AI and Chet GPT, and everything like that. They're gonna take off overall robotic type of executive roles.

Dr. Leah OH: 6:33

So you should lean into the human side for various reasons.

Aneace Haddad: 6:38

Yeah. So for me, my leadership was kind of a technical term for mentor way.

Dr. Leah OH: 6:47

Yeah, and I like these, you know, holistic, this idea of being responsible of being intentional. I mean, these are things that I think, you know, virtually anyone would say, yes, those are things that I want to be connected with. I want people to think of these and think of me, right, even if we're not using the word mindful leadership, but the attributes certainly kind of in that way.

Aneace Haddad: 7:11

Yes. Yeah. So I often so I, as I mentioned earlier, meditate a lot of one on retreats, I've done all of the very woowoo kind of, but you can't, that kind of language is very hard to bring the song over the bridge and on a journey. You don't need that there's a lot simpler language Exactly. How you just describe it, that people intuitively say, Yeah, I want that. I see why when we

Dr. Leah OH: 7:40

Yep. Yeah. Excellent. And so with this in mind, I mean, we've kind of touched on some of these things. But what do you think organizations and workgroups? What would they kind of look like or feel like if most of our formal title leaders, were practicing mindful leadership?

Aneace Haddad: 7:57

Yeah. Again, for me, but based on the way I'm looking at it the angle that we're just talking about right now. For me, it translates to a far greater shared ownership of results, collective ownership results in the broad term, not just the financial but the holistic kind of results. In an IT, you would see it at the very top levels at the C suite where conversations are far more organic, as opposed to the CEO interacting at an executive committee meeting for example, interacting with a functional heads will head staying quiet during that interaction with see a lot more sharing of ideas, even outside of the area of expertise. And yeah, a lot more a lot more mutual ownership of where we're going a lot more mutual and creativity innovation. Another word is enterprise leadership as a functional leadership, so my way of looking at things is mindful ation was very linked to that. I that I don't think that's, I don't think that's a formal definition of mindful leadership. But yeah,

Dr. Leah OH: 9:16

that's you know, that's it's nice for you to share how you see these connections and help other people kind of make those connections and in view it in those ways.

Aneace Haddad: 9:28

Like my book, The eagle that drink hummingbird nectar. It's been described as a novel or manual on mindful leadership, but I never mentioned the words mindful leadership anywhere in the book.

Dr. Leah OH: 9:42

Yep. I have it downloaded. I cannot wait. It looks it looks incredible. But yeah, exactly. And so I think that idea of, you know, it's one of those things it kind of reminds me that this idea of being healthy and it means something to Front to everyone. But when we feel how we just know it, I'm feeling really good. And maybe it's sleep, and maybe it's diet, and maybe it's meditation or who we're spending time with. And I think the same thing with mindful leadership, it's, you know, there isn't one precise way of getting there, but we can recognize, Okay, everyone, like you said, ownership and intention and the agency that buy in, it means so much to employees of all levels.

Aneace Haddad: 10:30

What I love and how you just described it right now, is that the terms you used and the image that you just evoked? Is it's founded on a trust and people's maturity, and ability to make these decisions for themselves. And what does healthy mean to each person? I think that's a really big part of the shift is trusting our people that they do know what's best, as opposed to the old way of command and control. I know what's best I'm gonna tell you. So you didn't say those words. But it was just it I was I was struck by how infused the idea was to resign.

Dr. Leah OH: 11:18

Yeah, yeah. Thank you. And this leads us I think, it's really natural segue to my next question, when we're thinking about this link between mindful leadership and wellness at work or self care at work. So can you kind of talk to us about how you see those connections being made? Or how they could be made?

Aneace Haddad: 11:38

Yeah. All I can speak of it. And I need to be careful that I'm not I'm not a wellness, I'm not a health person. So people that are struggling with with issues that that they need a doctor for anything, right now would not apply at all. So it's more of a general sense of wellness, in an otherwise healthy environment where people are, yeah. So with that caveat, away. And I think that's the it's very linked to what we were talking about just a moment ago, is this. Okay? All right. So it links to a shift that I've noticed in senior leaders that at the tops of organizations, traditionally, people at that age level tend to have teenage kids, and I'm generalizing. And the way they come to their management style, feels a lot like managing teenage kids, KPIs and consequences, actions and stuff, that if you do this, that happens, all that kind of thing, you go to the board level. At that level, they tend to have adult kids. And they've learned that when you're leading kids, you cannot use the same, the same method. And I'm seeing, I'm seeing a desire and a need for leaders, even at the C suite level, to adopt that style more faster. And break out of kind of the decades old mindset of our team to actually manage teenagers. And I think there's I think that managing like teenagers managing managing full grown adults as teenagers. On wellness,

Dr. Leah OH: 13:46

if you like, yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's so funny. You mentioned that I just published a paper we asked 60 managers, what is your metaphor for managing? And then what does that make your workgroup? And we also asked members, what is your manager but one manager said, I manage. I'm a parent of teenage boys, I manage as a parent, like it makes my inch she saw cheat, there are a lot of pride. For her. It's like, I love my boys. I love my team. But I give them the strict parameters. And then if they've earned more responsibility, but yeah, when we're reflecting on it, like as an adult, do you want to go to a workplace where someone views you? Oh, no, no, yeah. But yeah, those exact same terms that you used. So yeah,

Aneace Haddad: 14:39

fascinating. Repeatedly, not necessarily expressed in such stark clear terms as you just but once I saw it, starkly expressed like that by CEO and Europe, and at the end of the conversation, I asked him What if but they're all adults. They're not teenagers. Then you don't see the light go on and. And then since then I've heard the same thing, but not as starkly. And then when you bring it up usually people go. Yeah, of course. Of course. Yeah.

Dr. Leah OH: 15:16

Yep. But yeah, you're right. It's so hard, especially for thinking about traditional MBA programs and the literature that's that foundation, it suggests that you should take that approach. And we know it's changing now, but it is hard to break out of those molds.

Aneace Haddad: 15:33

And many, much of the literature is written by people with teenage kids.

Dr. Leah OH: 15:38

Yes, yep. Yep. Exactly. Send you. Yeah, the metaphors are phenomenal to consider how people conceptualize that.

Aneace Haddad: 15:51

Yeah. And and, and from what I've seen, as soon as people are aware of that, yeah,

Dr. Leah OH: 15:57

yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Because we think we're, you know, just thinking about how the manager is thinking of, she was really proud. And then when we circled back, she was one who elected to be a member check, and are like a reinterpreting this. And she's like, wow, realize that that's not my role here. That's my role outside of here. But you're right. It's, you know, until someone points it out, sometimes we're not even aware that that's what we're doing, or that we maybe shouldn't it taking that approach.

Aneace Haddad: 16:34

I've seen it in people who don't have kids. And that has led me to kind of notice how it's really embedded in our corporate culture. literature as you brought up, yeah. Yeah,

Dr. Leah OH: 16:51

gosh, well, still, in this wellness idea. And we've done previous episodes on self care, we brought in a licensed professional counselor. So we've kind of, you know, flipped over that stone. But thinking about our former leaders, what role do you think they have any sort of obligation to think about employee wellness at work or facilitating that in some way?

Aneace Haddad: 17:23

Yes, definitely. And again, I'm very sensitive to our people. I know that wellness, it's hard for corporations to get behind the term wellness, because it feels like just being nice and soft and fluffy. And that kind of thing. When it's placed into the context of high performance, that you can't be, you can't be at a sustainable level of high performance. If there is not a foundation of wellness. When it's understood from that context, then I can't see how you cannot be heavily invested in that. Yeah. What it means in each environment? I don't know, I mean, every every leader is going to have to find their way what it means to them what their context.

Dr. Leah OH: 18:26

Yeah, I think that it's one of those things where both paths will kind of converge. So it's, you can kind of take the human approach and say, this is this is the human, you know, this is what we should do, we value our people, we've brought them in, they're doing a lot for us. And we're gonna end up you know, impacting our ROI in a positive way. And honestly say, I don't care about them as humans, but I care about performance. Okay, you're gonna take this route, but we're going to end up at the same place, we're still going along this route. But

Aneace Haddad: 18:59

there was a story in my book. A man I had coached around 10 years ago, managing director of a textile factory in India, and it made it into my book but in a fictional manner, name change them industry and all that kind of thing. And they were struggling with safety issues. They had had a few fatalities. They had I was coaching him but not on safety. I'm not a safety expert, coaching them on commitment and as a leader, and I asked him what so they have spent millions of dollars on global management consultants and everything to build the dashboards for safety and everything. They know everything you're supposed to do. But it still wasn't enough. So I asked him what how would you rate your level of commitment to safety from one to 10? He said, very high, probably a nine. I said how about your tag team said probably an eight. And then conversation became that maybe people were dying because it was a nine, not a 10. And then he got angry. So they can't be 10 out of 10 committed because I can't be on everyone's back. So I've got 2000 people, they do stupid things. And then over the next few weeks, he started wondering what is 10 out of 10. Safety. And I remember the session when he had had his aha moment. He was really excited to have this, this coaching comment, he started talking to me and he said, a few days ago, we had an event I was walking on the shop floor, an elderly janitor slipped, twisted his ankle, I sat with him waited to put my jacket under his head waited for the safety people to come check him out. He said all of that was nine out of 10. That's what I would usually do. However, the idea of what what 10 out of 10, it was in my mind. So when the safety people said he's fine, he just needs to go home and rest. He said, I decided to get him, take them home myself, get him in my car, drive them home, sit with him and his wife made sure he committed and his wife would commit he would not be walking on his foot for a while. He said that was 10 out of 10 commitment. So well. Really looking after really showing empathy and a desire for wealth. And things shifted in the organization because the CEO took it to that level.

Dr. Leah OH: 21:35

Love that. Lets like that beautiful power of role modeling and recognizing we're always leading whether we want to embrace that title. And you know, the responsibility that goes with it or not. Yep. Wow, what an incredible story. And I know that it was real. Wow. That is yeah, that is 10 out of 10.

Aneace Haddad: 22:00

Yeah, he wouldn't have come out of necessarily from a wellness angle.

Dr. Leah OH: 22:04

Mm hmm. Yeah, exactly. Gosh. So that is a really incredible story of something that we can see in a face to face bricks and mortar workplace. And now we know that so many teams and organizations are hybrid or fully remote. So thinking about that, from a very pragmatic perspective, what would mindful leadership look like to you in a remote environment?

Aneace Haddad: 22:33

Yeah. So the immediate thing, I think a lot of people have gone beyond this, what I'm gonna describe right now, but one of the immediate things go goes back to the conversation on treating them as teenagers and not trusting them. Originally, initially, during COVID, it was like, I don't know what they're doing at home, maybe they're not even working, they're watching Netflix. I need a way to have the cameras all the time, so I can make sure they're at their desk. And thankfully, I think that that period subsided pretty quickly, but that wouldn't I mean, wellness is involved with that trusting them. Yeah. I think that's the big one of online, but virtual, it's. So it is, so it is linked to another another transformation, it's if you have a scale of one to 10, and one is I'm delegating tasks 10. As I'm delegating results on the authority. Empowerment is further to the right, towards getting authority rather than delegating tasks. In a virtual environment, you have to move a lot more toward upside empowerment. In order for wellness, that you're not delegating tasks, you're delegating some results. That's what you want the end result rather than making sure that people are at their desks and working. So wellness starts with that. And if people are, are are truly empowered, and you're delegating authority and results, with much more potential for wellness to

Dr. Leah OH: 24:20

anything exactly say think if we think of empowered as that space where we're really thriving, where we feel we have the resources and the support them we're positioned to do our job really well. And then if things aren't going well, I think too, when we have the resources and support, we're also more likely to raise their hand and say, This isn't working or I need help.

Aneace Haddad: 24:44

Yeah, yeah. It's hard. It's a it's a learning process for both sides of that the leader and, and the person that you lead, it's all very hard. Mm hmm.

Dr. Leah OH: 24:57

And then related to that, you know, kind of maybe thinking about this idea of either the leader or follower, someone who needs extra self care and then remote environment or virtual teams? What would you coach? Someone on an organization just saying, How do I let my teams know that this is important? Or they have options? Or that I'm here for them? What might that look like? Chill?

Aneace Haddad: 25:28

How to answer that in a simple manner, there are so many, one main. One main area is for the leader to model vulnerability and authenticity and honesty. It would it would. So agency and all that is involved. It's it's a matter, it's a very subtle area. I wouldn't coach someone to say I'm here for you. Because those words kind of imply lack of agency. So it would be more like it says, I encourage I encourage checkouts along as a group. So starting a meeting or starting up a session or something that can be a quick check in around the table. How am I can be very simple. How am I feeling today? What's in the way of me, me being fully present in this meeting, something like that. Versus close. But after a little while, it goes fast. Without trying to fix the problem without any solutioning without any problem solving. It's simply a moment for everyone to share. And through sharing. There's an there's an opening up and there's a because we're holding back from trying to fix the problems. Yeah, we're creating an environment of knowing that everyone is able to take care of their stuff. And they will reach out. Yeah, they need. So it's kind of that that that became a that became a process that was quite valuable during COVID When everyone was online. Yeah, just a quick. Yep, I'm fine. Is there anything in the way of me being fully present right now? It might be I'm worried about my daughter at school or something or, and just simply stating that, knowing that nobody is going to come in and try to accept things just kind of move on?

Dr. Leah OH: 27:54

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, think about the team dynamics then. And knowing people, I think we're always kinder to people we know. And we can empathize with and building community that way. It goes a really long way. Yeah, I

Aneace Haddad: 28:11

mentioned most people, will you become a community of three dimensional human beings, and you see them not just as a role. You see them as a human. And that's a lot easier to mess with them and connect with them and trust them. Yeah,

Dr. Leah OH: 28:27

exactly. It made me think of this moment, in the very beginning of the pandemic. It was a my grad class online. And then my daughter was three. And they were like, are you okay, Doctorow? Like, I just think she's gonna poop. Like this, this time when she put those at night grad classes in the evening. And I'm like, I don't know what I'm gonna do my partner. He's working. And she's just gonna be sitting in her diaper. And they're like, oh, so nice to see you. And I was like, oh, like, it was the first time they saw me rather than just Doctorow. And they're like, Yeah, take a break that no problem, but I just remember feeling like, okay, it's out there. We've said this, I might be running out to change a diaper, and it's gonna be fine. Everyone's fine. So yeah, yeah. So I experienced that. And it was really lovely. So thank you for that reminder. So, and this is leading us you have so many amazing leadership lessons. And you've learned these throughout this very impressive career. And I'm just interested how you can have parlayed all of this experience into writing a very lovely book, the eagle that drink hummingbird nectar. How did you kind of parlay that into a book about leadership?

Aneace Haddad: 29:49

I had. I've always loved writing since I was a kid. I wrote school. Payment Systems books. 20 something years ago when I was running mic company, they were there for that space, but not necessarily technical, but for that space, more strategy, marketing vision books. And but they were, they were telling, telling books, like the vast majority of business books, and I written a first version, I wanted to capture a book on my transition to leadership, coaching, executive coaching, team, team coaching. And I wrote very quickly a few years ago was a version of that. But it was again, a telling kind of book with a with anecdotes and stories. And I flew it over I didn't, it's boring. I didn't want to write yet another kind of book like that. I was very inspired by books like Lencioni. These were they all Patrick Lencioni books, Five Dysfunctions of a Team, things like that, that have a mix of fiction and telling. But I wanted to go first, I made this a I wanted to write a full fiction book with no telling parts to it. And it turned out to be immensely harder than I had imagined. I have three coaches, as I was working on, and it's quite difficult to get the telly you can see in the way I'm talking to you. There's a very Professor kind of voice I can that comes out pretty easily. And I had to, I had to get beyond that voice in the book. So it was it was it was a process my own self transformation and learning how do you tell a story and allow people to take from it what they want to take from us? Yes.

Dr. Leah OH: 31:47

Yeah. Yeah, it's like, kind of going from the teenage kids to the adult kids.

Aneace Haddad: 31:55

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Very much in that same spirit. Mm hmm.

Dr. Leah OH: 32:02

Excellent. Like is Eva downloaded on Audible. I just finished another book yesterday. So it's, it's next in my queue? I cannot wait. So I have two final questions for you. So I'm the communicative leader. We like to leave our listeners with leadership or leadership communication tips. And I know, we've already touched on so many. The first I want to think about are titled formal leaders, you know, our supervisors, directors, managers, what tip or suggestion do you have for for those folks?

Aneace Haddad: 32:38

In terms of

Dr. Leah OH: 32:41

any leadership or communication, what do you kind of wish they knew or were mindful of?

Aneace Haddad: 32:49

Yeah. So for that level of executive leader, one of the most powerful and simplest shifts, especially in the notion of calm communication, is to flip that on its head. So it's kind of like if you look at feedback as a fourth form of communication, people will come to me saying, I want to get better at giving feedback, giving effective feedback, people don't like receiving the feedback. I don't know how to do it, I need to get more skillful. And I'll ask them, how, how skillful are you at receiving feedback? And that asking for feedback. And so I'll have them spread six months where they don't give any feedback at all. And they just spend all their time asking for feedback from their people. Yeah, getting skillful at asking for it. And they will say, Yeah, but they don't tell me the truth. They're going to sugarcoat everything I go, Yeah, that's the learning is how do you create an environment for people to tell you, honestly, how you're doing? And their little techniques? Like, rather than just saying, How am I as a boss, they're gonna say, you're great. Yes, yeah. Yeah. You could make it a lot more specific and say, I'm trying to be more empowering. For example, how would you rate me as an empowering leader from one to 10? And they may say, seven or eight, then you could say, great, what would it look like? Have you seen me at a nine or a 10? And then what's missing? How do I get there? So you become more skillful at how you request that. And in that process, you're creating an environment where people trust you much more because they see that they can be honest with you. At some point, they will come to you and say, How am I doing? Can you write me once? And I was just working on Yes. So So I So I turned it on its head rather than you getting better at communicating and getting feedback, listening and asking for stuff. Yeah, that's communication as well.

Dr. Leah OH: 35:10

Exactly. Yeah. The power of listening right is almost always overlooked.

Aneace Haddad: 35:17

Yeah. And people often think, well, listening, the other person takes the initiative to speak. And if they're not speaking, well, hey, that's up to them. They just need to speak. But no, as a leader, my role is also creating an environment where they are speaking to me. And I first have to draw it out of them until they feel confident and trusting enough to speak on their own. But if they're not speaking, it's my role to create that environment where that is happening. So by turning communication on its head, it's a lot. There's a lot richness to be, to be to be pulled out.

Dr. Leah OH: 35:56

Yeah. Yeah. I love that the learning the role modeling what it says to employees, the workgroup, culture and climate. Yeah. Amazing. And with that in mind, our next so we've talked about our formal title leaders. And now I want to think about a leadership tip or communication tip for employees of all ranks across industries. So if, you know someone just came up to you at the supermarket and said, Oh, that's so neat. Your leadership coach, I don't want to be a title leader. Management isn't for me or now. What are what are some tips you would leave them with just to be you know, more engaged or happier at work? Or whatever it is?

Aneace Haddad: 36:42

Um, wow, I think I think a big area there is to not underestimate one's influence around them. Even without any title, if they're in any kind of role doing anything. Well, I'm, I'm reminded of that, the old story about a janitor at NASA when they were getting ready to send the first man to the moon. And somebody asked him about his job as janitor. He described it as I'm, I'm contributing to getting a man on the moon. So his way of looking at his role was much bigger. I've used recently an example out here. Football what's called soccer in the US. People are I'm not into I'm not a I'm not a sports guy. But people love football analogies and stuff. And when you look at you use the the the analogy of a player that is on the bench for the whole season. And if that player has an attitude of low ownership in the overall results of the team, then they're going to behave a certain way. They don't they have high ownership. And you may wonder, why does Why would someone sitting on the bench feel like they all know the results of the team? Yeah. Well, they feel that because they're practicing with the team as if they're ready at any moment. Sometimes they're watching the sidelines. So when they're when they're in the locker room afterwards, they're giving feedback on what they saw their feedback value, because their professional eyes that are seeing it from the pitch. Yeah. So I wouldn't underestimate one's influence and those roles. Yeah, I think that would be the main the main little piece of advice of that, yes.

Dr. Leah OH: 38:57

Yeah. And so powerful, because I think people who say, Well, I'm not the leader. And it's like, Well, wait, you're all whatever. In my, my view, everyone's always leading whether they have the title or not. But not the leader doesn't prohibit you from being influential and inspiring and, you know, innovating and all of those things. Yeah. Excellent. Well, a nice thank you for joining us on the communicative leader. I've really enjoyed our conversation, and I know our listeners will too.

Aneace Haddad: 39:31

Thank you. Leah. This is wonderful, I really love this. I'm all excited. And then there's this your evening. It's my day, so I'm gonna start the day with a lot of passion.

Dr. Leah OH: 39:40

Yeah. Excellent. All right, my friends. That wraps up our conversation today. Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose. And looking forward to chatting with you again soon. I'm the communicative leader.