Transforming Tough Conversations: A Conversation with Co-Founder and President of the Institute for Health and Human Potential, Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry

Tough conversations are, well, tough.

That's why we call them that -- tough, challenging, hard, sensitive, etc.

While these types of conversations aren't going away my friends, there are specific, pragmatic steps you can take that will make these more manageable.

Guess what?

Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry does us one better than manageable, he helps us to see how embracing these conversations in an audience-centered way can transform our workplace culture in really positive and transformative ways. 

I had a lot of fun chatting with JP, and more importantly, I learned soooooo much from him.

Y'all, I have a PhD in this, write in this area, teach it and I still walked away with so  much new knowledge -- this is a powerful conversation, for sure.

Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose.

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Transcript

Dr. Leah OH: 0:00

Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry is a powerhouse in the leadership coaching arena. JP works with professional athletes is an advisor to the US Army and Navy and consults for organizations like IBM, Mercedes Benz and Goldman Sachs, among others. He's also the co founder and president of the Institute for Health and human potential, we chat about how to have that tough conversation and actually finish it my friends. JP walks us through his last 8% culture system and is based on an enormous data set. So instead of getting through that first ad 85 90% of what we need to discuss, we can approach these conversations and thoughtful, relational and effective ways. Hello, and welcome to the communicative leader hosted by me, Dr. Leah Omilion-Hodges. My friends call me Dr. OH. I'm a Professor of Communication and a leadership communication expert, and the communicative leader. We're working to make your work life what you want it to be. JP, I cannot wait to geek out with you today about leadership and communication in these tough conversations. Thank you so much for joining us on the communicative leader. But before we dive into the ins and outs, can you tell us a little bit about what brought you into this area?

Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry: 1:25

Yeah, cuz I have challenge challenges personally with communication? Probably, and maybe that's a bit trite to say. But we all do, don't we? I mean, you know, I've, as you have, I've studied this area for many years. And I still struggle with, you know, having conversations with my senior team with my business partner with my 20 year old son. So there's a real honest reason why I'm here, which is to learn first and foremost, 25 years ago, but then, kind of what brought me into the space is, you know, working with athletes or people under pressure, that's kind of our areas, you know. And for listeners, it's it's, you know, we listen fairly well when we're not under pressure. But as soon as we're in those kind of moments where we're feeling judged, when we're feeling pressure to deliver a result, all sudden, we're not as effective in both listening and communicating. So that's probably where for me it all started, Leah.

Dr. Leah OH: 2:28

Yes, I love that. And like you said, I mean, we've been studying this a long time. And probably most days, something comes out of my mouth. And I think, Oh, I wish I could have tweaked that, or I wish I had thought and pivoted just a little bit. So we recognize even when we immerse ourselves, there's always more to learn. So we have your background, we understand this passion. And before we dive headfirst into your approach for navigating these challenging conversations, can you help us understand what makes something a tough conversation? What are what are some of these common elements that you see?

Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry: 3:08

Sure.I wouldn't even broaden it. I mean, we're going to talk obviously, about conversations, but I would broaden it to the hard situations that we face in our research, we find that is definitely in conversations, but it's also in decisions. It's also in speaking up even though that's not a one to one communication, it is definitely or let's say one on one conversation, it's definitely communication. And it's critical, if you want to be high performing. And so I would kind of more broadly, kind ofkind of construe or think about this, number one, number two,when we are feeling responsible for an outcome, when there's uncertainty to that outcome.These are some of the elements that then make itincrease the pressure increase, what makes it a harder conversation. And then I kind of mentioned it earlier, when we are feeling kind of judged, that we're responsible for that outcome. And when we feel personally judged, that's whena bunch of things happen in the brain that put us in a position where we feel we perceive that this is a hard conversation. And so much of this is about perception. You know, when we frame it in a certain way, when the certain elements are there, and we frame it in a certain way, that's when we are in that place where we're not able to think as clearly when we're not as able to listen as well or communicate as as effectively.

Dr. Leah OH: 4:49

When you were just talking I was thinking of this is almost like a pressure trifecta. Because we have responsibility for the outcome. We care about the outcome.And then we have uncertainty about the outcome. I mean, we, we can definitely look and say, yep, that's, that's a lot of challenge. It's a lot of pressure.

Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry: 5:10

It is. And you know, the bottom line that most people miss in organizations is that the natural default behavior for most individuals, all individuals, is to default when they're facing that trifecta is to default to protection, not risk. And they don't know it. We don't know what as managers, but that's what's going on. And so unless there's some antidote, unless there's some way to manage that default to protection, not risk, we will continue to have people who won't speak up who won't make hard calls, who won't put themselves in a position of being judged. And we are not even aware this is going on. That's the kind of crazy part in my mind.

Dr. Leah OH: 5:55

Hmm. I kind of related I've just talked to Dr. Ryan basil, I don't know if you know, his work, but it's all employee voice and business ethics and speaking up. And he brought in lifelong socialization, and how that implicit even when we're a child, we have to defer to adults, we know there are certain things that if we say the adult is going to be upset, and while it sounds silly, saying it out loud, those implicit theories are still impacting us in the workplace as an adult, as you're saying, it's this protection mode and fear of retribution.

Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry: 6:33

Yeah, absolutely. A lot of our time, is driven by something called impression management, which I know you understand, but not maybe everyone on the podcast does. But it's that we spend a lot of our day a lot of our bandwidth is taken up, I wonder what they think about me, Okay, I better manage that. And because we want to manage that, principally, because we don't want to be excluded. As soon as we're excluded, then we are in a position where kind of almost genetically driven, we feel like we won't have access to resources or relationships that will ensure our survival. And so as soon as we're in that situation, no wonder, you know, those implicit theories we have inside that say, Whoa, I don't want to get excluded. I better not speak up, I better not do those things then, again, are not, you know, protection, their risk. So it goes literally against the fabric of our brain. And that's why it's hard. And that's why if people aren't given skills, if they don't have the right environment, they will continue to avoid. That's just the truth. So yeah. You know that Yeah,

Dr. Leah OH: 7:48

well, the truth, and I'm sure the experience of money, unfortunately. So one thing, and you've already mentioned this, and I found myself and I was preparing for a conversation, thinking about perception. And we know that perceptions vary from person to person. So I have a two parter for you. So one, how often in your work? Do you find one person is really agonizing or fretting over something? And then to find out the conversation person, partner isn't? And then second, what is that perception of the tough conversation versus this is just business? Just really direct to the point removing feelings? And they're like, it's just business? It's not a tough conversation?

Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry: 8:33

Yeah, that's that's a really great question, I think. Because the brain is trying to protect the body. Because of that reason, we default to protection, not risk. It jumps to judgment based on less than 5% of available information, which is an alarming stat. Because of that, the brain processes as it processes incoming information, it prioritizes speed over accuracy. That's interesting. So in that moment, the brain is going to do everything it can to make sure that it saves the body. So it's going to prioritize speed or accuracy, it's going to jump to judgment based on less than 5%. And it's in that moment that we can sit there and let's see, I'm looking at you or I'm looking at a conversation partner. And they have some look on their face, the brain. Its job is to keep us safe. So it's going to sit there and actually jump to judgment with less accuracy than, you know speed and go, am I at risk? And is that person was that? What does that face mean? Hmm. And that's when we can confuse the impact they are legitimately having not legitimately that they are having on us for their intention. So that's one of the first gaps for sure. We fall into and And, and I think that point that they're not thinking about us, you know, we're sitting there worried that they're, they're not even thinking of us, I read this, I don't know how many years ago in our 30s 40s and 50s, we worry about what other people think of us. In our 60s, we stop worrying about what people think of us. And in our 70s, we realize that we're never thinking about us in the first one. And so, you know, it's the same idea. So that's one big part, which is the first question you asked. The second question, though, is interesting as well, which is they saw what I just said, and again, the research, you know, we can have different frames for the same situation. And so I might see that as let's say, I'm new on a team, let's say, I don't have as much experience, let's say, internally, even I have some insecurities. So multi factors, but I'm in that conversation with you. And I'm now thinking, Hmm, you just gave me some feedback, is my job at risk is my livelihood and on and on and on? And you who might have more, you know, seniority, more experience, more confidence, more many things. More understanding of how business works, or doesn't work and how this culture is or isn't, whatever, so many factors. You might be seen it as no, this is just business, I'm just giving you back. It's nothing more than that something personal. So it's interesting how again, we can construe something as very personal or not personal. And because of that, it said, we can be two different conversations. I think my job is at stake here. Like, no, I just need to get this done. And by the way, I'm not even saying that it means we don't take into consideration emotions. Of course it will any effective leader would. But that's just more data more information. It's not necessarily or it shouldn't be the driving factor in what gets communicated, what accountability gets created or not. What, what kind of listening Do you want to really tune into, so that person and you with them can help manage their brain manage that emotion so they can hear you? So there's, I mean, this is why your podcast is so awesome, is there's so many levels, so many layers. And this is some of the hardest stuff we do as humans. And so it kind of behooves us to get a little bit better at it.

Dr. Leah OH: 12:38

Yes, thank you. That's it. I think a lot of times the communication, my brain will literally almost short circuits, I think about all of the complexity and the layers and the factors at play. And I always tell people, it's amazing. People arrive at organizations or log on at approximately the same time like that this work gets done because of how much complexity there is. In one thing I was smiling about when you're talking. When I was a PhD student, I taught a public speaking course. And I wish I had the exact citation. But in our textbook, and this was I think it was a citation from the 40s or 50s. Because now, you know, it would be frowned upon to bring an air horn in your classroom and just randomly let it go off when you want to. But what the gentleman was doing was once the students heard the air horn, they had to write down immediately what they were thinking about. In this is when there were speeches going on, the teacher was instructing and it was like essentially lunch. What am I doing after after school? Like does he or she Are they like me, right? So all of these things completely outside of what was going on. And I love that that's how this public speaking text started to say, this is a huge, huge moment for you. But But someone's out there thinking about their sandwich, or they're thinking about what to do afterwards.

Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry: 14:11

Like it's a great point chicks in me Hi, chicks amis. Hi, which I know, you know, is workaround flowing, they use a beeper system, less a foghorn, or a big trash horn. But they literally, you know, they've had this and they've done this for years where they beat an individual and they write down what they were thinking and 50% of the time, they weren't thinking about anything that had anything related to the moment. They're lost. By the way, that's why mindfulness for anyone listening, need to do mindfulness, or you need to have some internal technology. Mindfulness is by far the most studied the most effective, you need to have some form of internal technology that says, oh, maybe I'm not present right now. Or or my mind's wandering. I don't have to believe every thought I have. Yeah, and so You know, I love your story. That's a great one. And I just sit here. And I think for everyone listening, what's the takeaway? People are thinking about themselves more than anything? They're Yeah, they're more worried, do I have something on my clothes? You know, do I have something in my teeth? They're not actually looking at us thinking about us that often. And it's actually very, I hope, freeing for people. I agree. I think the next level, I would even suggest this the next level. If we truly want to be exceptional, in our, how we live our lives, our effectiveness, etc. Can we in that moment, actually sit there and have empathy for the person that we're with and sit there go, I wonder what their suffering is. Because as soon as you can tune into that, yourself evaporates, you don't think about yourself, you're more thinking, Oh, I wonder if they had a tough morning, Oh, I wonder what's going on for them. And then all of a sudden, you can be in a lot more of a service mentality, a lot more of a serving energy. And that's, by the way, now you're not thinking about me and what I have to say, and the worries I have about this presentation or whatever performance moment we're facing. That's actually the next level. And again, this is all possible to train on. Hmm. But it's got to be disciplined practice, or else, you know, none of us will be able to do that. Mm hmm.

Dr. Leah OH: 16:22

Yeah. And I like that shifting from i to we.

Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry: 16:26

Absolutely.

Dr. Leah OH: 16:28

So JP a, I'm sure you have heard every reason for not wanting to engage in a challenging conversation. So what are these obstacles that people often will tell you? Like? I would love to have that conversation? I'd love to think about this. But what? Fill in the blank for us?

Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry: 16:53

Yeah, I mean, like the reasons that people don't have a conversation. Yeah. Well, yeah, great question. Boy, so many reasons. And we're very creative. We're exceptional being creative for avoidance. No, in our data, we find that when you're facing a difficult conversation, there's two principal ways that we default. And we call this our, our predictable default behavior. So each of us has has a pattern. When I work with athletes, I see this not so much in conversation, although it certainly can be there. But when they're facing pressure, kind of what their pattern is. And so this comes from our work with athletes, maybe originally, in some ways to to look for patterns, at least. And what's interesting is, if I'm having to have a conversation with you. And I struggle with these conversations. And just I need to step even one point back you, I think, you know this, but we did a study of 34,000 people will, we found that there is about 8% of what we don't want to say it's the hard part of a conversation, it's the most important parts of the conversation, it's the part that might have consequences for you. And because now I'm having that, moving into that last 8%, I've gotten past 85 and 90, getting to 92. And as I move into the last day percent, and I see that you're starting to get bit triggered a bit, you know, emotional, because you see where the where this conversation is going, you see the consequences. I get infected by your motion. And as opposed to stepping in and facing it. I do one of two things, either, and this is 68% of us in our data, I avoid it. And I come up with all these creative solutions, as you pointed out, or let's say I've been thinking about having this conversation for a couple of days with you. I'm up at three in the morning. And my mind and I'm thinking about it ruminating, ruminating, ruminating. And now we're it's 10am or 11am. And I'm having a conversation with you. And I just, you know, feel like okay, I finally got the courage to actually speak up. And what do I do I speak up. That's like the worst possible thing I could do. The single worst possible thing I could do, because I don't really know what's on your side of the bridge. I've jumped to judgment based on less than 5% of the available information. I feel certain and right. And it's in that moment, especially where we don't speak up. But we start by being curious that's part of our model be curious, then speak up not speak up and be curious. And it matters because you're gonna get us a whole you're gonna give me a whole bunch of information that I'm gonna go Oh, that's it. I didn't know that. Huh? Oh, am I changed? What I say in the speaking upside so be cute. As I speak up, really matters. And so, in some ways, if we can sit there and think, Okay, I'm having a hard conversation what I'm really doing is getting more than 5% of available information. I'm just going to really stand in the Be curious side. In some ways that might make it a lot easier for us to think about contemplate having a hard conversation, which might be a bit of an antidote to the creative ways that we avoid. So imagine everyone who's listening, 62 thirds of us avoid 32% of us a third almost make a mess, right? So that's the point that I'm saying. So I've been thinking about it all night. Now I'm going to have the conversation. And now I'm going to launch in i Come on way too strong. I come in hot. And I have impact I don't intend. That's what we think of as that. Other side. So of 60% of us avoid 32% of us make a mess. Right, when we struggle with the last 8% conversation,

Dr. Leah OH: 21:08

yeah. And I like the simplicity in being curious. And then speaking up, I think if we speak up first, like you say, we're coming in hot not thinking about it, then we can be curious about the amount of damage we've done. And, you know, the reverse, that sounds a lot better.

Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry: 21:27

What it does, and by the way, in some ways. It may not I might be grasping at straws here, but I actually think it's slightly takes the pressure off. If I'm gonna have a conversation. I'm just going to start by being curious. I don't have to say anything. But we talked about it as having kind of really two conversations. Right? It you know, in the first conversation, I'm actually making the commitment not to speak my truth. Right, I'm actually sitting there thinking about, like in meeting one is just, hey, help me understand Leo, what was going on that? Right? And you might say, Well, what do you think I'm trying to learn? Right? And I'm just trying to listen and try to be curious whether you use that language or not. That's what we're trying to do. Because here's what happens. If you're sitting there, I'm asking you the question, I'm being curious, but really, I'm just waiting until I can speak up, you're gonna sense that in me, you're gonna go. And that's not going to make you feel less anxious. I'm, my goal is to make you feel less anxious, anxious to make you feel safe enough to be in the conversation. Now, I can't control everything, of course. But there's a bunch of things I can do. Ask questions that helps you managed your brain increase, interestingly enough, be curious. And then say, you know, and this can be unfulfilling for the other person will say, Okay, listen, thank you. That's really helpful. I'm going to think about this. Let's talk again tomorrow. And even when I start meeting two tomorrow, I'm like, So Leah, you know, we had a good conversation yesterday, was there anything new that you thought of since we talk? Okay, now I can, like you feel heard? I have been curious. And look, none of us are perfect at this. And now I can move to part two, which is speak up. Okay. So it sounds like this is going on, this is going on? Great. You know, from my side of the bridge, here's, here's how I'm seeing things may be seen it differently. Here's what we're trying to do to build the culture on our team, you know, to have high accountability and for what just happened, that's not acceptable. And our behavior is not acceptable. And I think I understand what went on for you. But, you know, that's not what we're trying to build here. And in fact, there's a whole bunch of ways, of course, that we can kind of communicate that, which is understand that I'm trying to make, make you feel safe. Control it all, but do everything I can so that you understand. I'm not on purpose, because your brain will go there. As we already talked about. I'm trying to make you recognize I'm not just trying to rip you up for because I'm, you know, sadist or masochist? Which one is it when you want to impart pain on someone else?

Dr. Leah OH: 24:15

I think it's a sadist. Yeah,

Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry: 24:18

there's a masochist. combined. That's right. So so I don't want to, by the way, you shouldn't probably say it if you don't know the word less. noticable. Couldn't be

Dr. Leah OH: 24:28

Googling right after. Exactly. Yes. And I imagined to I don't know this literature. Well, but I imagined when you're curious and asking questions, and coming from a place of listening that's automatically going to slow your brain, which is can be really helpful here. Mm hmm.

Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry: 24:48

Absolutely. I mean, we have to manage ourselves, manage others if we're a manager, people leader, with the brain in mind. This is a big leap in the last 10 years of management studies. We're starting to recognize that, you know, neuroscience has a place. And, by the way, for a lot of folks, in organizations, I think they walk away learning some of the stuff. So I think you know, this, but you know, that's what we do we help organizations create high performing cultures in months, not years. And so that's like, that's our whole purpose. And the thing is, is that for when someone understate when they go through some of our learning, they understand the brain, how it works, all of a sudden, they're like, Oh, my God, you just described me, that's helpful. But hopefully, they also understands, understand that this explains the person who are they're having a conversation with or doing whatever with, you know, we, our goal is to help, you know, challenge people to become students of human behavior. So as soon as you get that, all of a sudden, you almost don't even need the techniques and all of the other stuff. I mean, we all do we need to be prepared and cetera, et cetera. But it because it all makes sense. It's just like, kind of riding a bike? Oh, of course, I'm gonna be curious first, because I got to help you manage your brain. So it's not even like I have to Oh, what's the next thing? No, I just know, I can't come in and just start launching, jump into judgment be being certain versus curious.

Dr. Leah OH: 26:21

Yes, yes. And they love that about your organization. So he's think as an organizational scholar, if we have more people immersed in healthy, pro social, you know, other oriented cultures, our whole lives would be so much different. For sure, I mean, you know that this is this is your day in and day out? No, no, no,

Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry: 26:43

you're you're right. And I think the principal goal of an organization is not, you know, to be nice to their employees, it's not to be a family, it's none of that it's to grow a business that adds value. So you can employ more people, you can just get whatever results, you want to fulfill whatever purpose you want. But if you get all of this stuff that you start to recognize how I go about doing that, is completely different. When I know the brain when I understand what makes people tick. So now it is to make them have some experience in your organization where they have a voice where they feel valued. But that's not the goal. That's a means to the goal. And that's where sometimes I think, organizations, folks in HR get it wrong. I think the goal is to make people feel good. It's not the goal is to be a family. It's not. Right. So but but if but again, if you understand how it all works together, then you'll you sit, there you go, how, why would I ever jump into command and control? I might, because that's my default, because I make a mess. But if I understand myself, and I go, okay, that's my default, I've got to have an antidote, I've got to have a kind of coaching, I've got to have whatever it is to help me manage them. But at the end of the day, I kind of recognize command and control is not going or bullying or interrupting or when I'm not giving people voice not making people feel valued. That's not actually going to help me get to my goal, which is, whatever your goal is, yeah. Because, you know, there's this great Japanese proverb, which I love. All of us are smarter than any one of us. I love that. Because it's like, that's why you want people engaged. That's why you want them feeling commitment, you know, employee commitment, because you're like, I'm valued. I'm a voice, I feel connected. And now because of that, I can be courageous, I can speak up, I can do whatever it is, that's hard.

Dr. Leah OH: 28:51

Yep. So we put that investment in our people. And I think two people fail to see the compound of that and recognizing that we get to that goal even quicker, because then that's how they treat our vendors and our employees, our customers. I mean, it doesn't just stop with the employee base. We're transforming the way we're interacting with these external

Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry: 29:15

publics. It's a great point. I mean, our reputation catches up to us. How we treat people, maybe not for six months or a year or five years, but eventually does. Yeah, you know, like, when you're a leader, where it's really just about you. When you're not you. You might say, you know, I represent you I like you can say a whole bunch of things, but when people see over and over, that you're not really interested in anything but yourself. In fact, you're may or may not even be interested in the company's goals. You're just interested in yourself. You know, they're going to start walking away.

Dr. Leah OH: 30:00

So JP, we've we've got the solid understanding of tough conversations under our belt. And now I'd love to learn more about your renowned system, the last 8% principle and transforming those tough conversations.

Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry: 30:15

Yeah. So, you know, this is our culture change system. And there's a couple of really important points to know. And again, people don't get this. Like, there's a whole bunch of myths. So first myth is. So actually, let me step back and say this. For an organization, we think our strategy is our competitive advantage. It's not if you have a good competitive a good strategy. People will copy it. Right? Of course. So that's not a competitive advantage, right? A point of difference. People think, Oh, our product, that's going to be our competitive advantage. And again, it's copyable. Yes, and even a word copyable.

Dr. Leah OH: 31:02

We can replicate it. Well, we should go with the copyable.

Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry: 31:07

Okay, so your strategies copyable, your products copy? Well, the thing is not copyable is your culture, and cultures, and there's organizations like oh, we want to create HP, us have the HP way many years ago, and people tried to copy it or, you know, copy Google or copy whoever I mean, we all you know, we all know the different ones that people try to copy. And that that's impossible. And there's a whole reason why, which I'll talk about now. But it's impossible to copy culture. And because of that, your culture becomes your competitive advantage. It is the difference maker, it's why you can collaborate, and why you can do hard things and why you can be innovative, and why you can bring on, you know, smart people who can do great things like it's not strategy copyable it's not products copyable it is absolutely cultural. So let's dig into that a little bit. Why can't your culture be copied because of how its created cultures? Not? Let's put, you know, let's do an off site as a senior team and come up with four or five values that we think okay, that's our culture. No, culture comes from the hard moments culture comes from the last 8% moments. Because when we're under pressure in the last 8%, there's more cortisol in our brain. Cortisol is a stress hormone. One of the effects of cortisol is that it sears in memory in a more profound way. And so, as a leader, you can be great 92% of time, but now you're in the last 8% situation with your team. Everyone's got more cortisol in their brain, let's say because it's last 8% Literally, by definition, it's a hard moment, people are feeling the pressure. Whatever decision you make, in that moment, whatever behavior you engage in, that literally gets seared into their brain. And that creates really two things. One, your reputation as a leader. And number two, the culture on this team, the silent signal that says this behavior is acceptable, this behavior is rewarded on this team. And so that's why culture is not copyable. Because everyone has different lasting present situations. And they deal with it differently. So it's, it's, it's what people get wrong. So that that's an important point. Number one, number two, culture does not exist across organizations is another fallacy. culture exists principally on teams, that's the fundamental unit of culture. It's why you can have two hospital floors doing the same work, let's say oncology, with the same values on the wall, in the same hospital door, like Florida floor, right, like, not even separated geographically, really. And you have staff that go back and forth between the floors. I've worked, I worked in a couple of hospitals a couple of times, and I've seen this, that we've seen this definitely with our clients. And yet you even in those situations where everything's the same, including the staff, there's one difference, which I'll mention in a second, but including the staff that goes back and forth, you can have completely different cultures on the floor. Why? Right? And what kind of different cultures you can have some that are people are absolutely happy to help pitch in, even on their breaks. And on the other people are seemingly more selfish, you know, just don't really care what's going on for anyone else, but themselves. They're not going to pitch and give that extra kind of discretionary effort. What's the difference? The only difference is you have managers who do not float between one floor or the other. Because it's the manager that drives the culture on the floor based on their modeling of hard moments in the last 8% Because of the cortisol effect. And so what's interesting is, you know, again, organizations get it wrong. They're like, Oh, culture exists across the organization. No, oh, here are the values these this is our culture. No, no culture comes from your hard moments. That's why many people have skills to manage their brain and hard moments. And so that's what creates, and that's why it's not copyable. That's why it is your competitive advantage. And that's why in our culture change system, the big aha, I think, for a lot of people is those last 8%, those hard moments that most people struggle with, they avoid, they make a mess up, we help them see it differently. I think you'll appreciate this, Leah because you know, this kind of literature, but we help them see differently not as something to fight or avoid or construe as a negative. Last 8%, we want them to see differently, not as the worst thing that could happen. But as something that does happen, and is your biggest opportunity to transform yourself and your, you know, leadership capability. But more so the culture on your team. So last 8%, is we call it the last 8% opportunity will as an organization face hard things. So how can you become the most courageous organization in your industry, and create a culture where we will be uncomfortable, because our default is to protection, not risk. If you can norm all of this and say, Look, in our organization, you're not always going to be comfortable. But that's okay. Because we want to be what we call an upper right hand quadrant culture, which is, you know, a high performing culture that has both high connection and high courage. So we have a map that kind of described all this. That's, and so that's, you know, and so fundamentally, we say, people, either it's up to you, not the CEO or CHRO, it's up to you to actually own the culture on your team. Here's the structure to do it not even with us as like a third party vendor, we give them the tools, so they can do it, using some, you know, innovative approaches, like four week sprint and some other things. And we're so, so excited about this, as you can probably tell,

Dr. Leah OH: 37:03

yeah, that is I love just the the reframe. This doesn't have to be scary. This doesn't have to be a negative. But it's an opportunity to demonstrate how we do things here.

Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry: 37:13

Right? Right. And by the way, it's not like, you have a choice, because you will face hard moments. Everyone does. So it's almost funny, some CEOs and CHR OHS that get overwhelmed, like I got to own the culture, you don't, but they think they do. And then they think, Oh, my gosh, how do we do this across a large organization. And then so they do nothing. And I understand that, by the way, like, as a president of our company, I know that feeling, I gotta get things done, I don't have time to work on the culture on the team, I totally get that. But here's the thing. The hard moments aren't going away. So you might put your head in the sand and say, We're not going to focus on culture, but your culture is being created right now. Everyone listening on your team, when you hit a hard moment, your culture is being created co created, really. So you don't really have a choice. And so what happens is culture gets created by default, not by design.

Dr. Leah OH: 38:11

By default, not by design. Exactly. So GP I love the system, a organizational brain, my communication, and my leadership is just all lit up. And I thinking how do you how can we kind of lean into this into other areas of our life? So whether it's, you know, a contractor we've hired or something with a family member or friend, is there a way we can can apply these ideas to these tough conversations?

Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry: 38:39

Yeah, absolutely. So to really see them for what they are the biggest opportunity to transform ourselves, when we go through a hard moment, it's our biggest opportunity to transform ourselves, and the biggest opportunity to transform a relationship. So number one, we have to really buy into that. If we don't then forget it, you know, turn off the podcast now. You know, number one, number two. It won't be easy. You will struggle because of the way the brain is. And you almost have to accept that you will be somewhat incompetent in the early going of doing this. It's not going to magically happen that you're going to get effective at this kind of thing. And if you can see every opportunity to have one of these conversations as an opportunity to practice in order to transform, then time we'll have like a year from now, if you and I were on the call, we're having the same conversation and listeners are listening and listeners if you spent the last year every time you could possible, have this conversation being a little less competent at first, or more competent in the middle and maybe more common At the end, in a year, you actually are going to get better. And because you're better now you're going to have a confidence because you're going to have a confidence, you will be looked on very differently by the people around you. And this will drive a lot of your career. So that you just kind of buy into this to start, right. It's like, you know, when I work with athletes, I don't work with them for a day or a week or month, it's yours, it takes time, right to kind of create these neural pathways in our brains, there's no easy fix, sorry, everyone, no easy fix. Having said that, there's a whole bunch of things we can do start a mindfulness practice, today, 10 minutes a day, we know that changes the brain helps you see your thoughts for what they are, and helps you not be as affected by pressure. Number one, so do that. Number two, that we're in the golden age of education, like there's so much like this podcasts are so much great opportunity to listen and learn. You got to be an aggressive learner, and jump in and do that. So that's kind of number two. Number three, I would if listener, if you're in like a pod doesn't even matter what kind of job. But if you can spend other money on coaching, though, doesn't have to be a paid coach, it can be a good friend. But generally speaking, it's better for a coach because they have expertise. To lose your coach, I slightly joke but not really. For the last 13 years, I've either had a coach or therapist when my life is going well to coach when it's not going so well as a therapist. But But in either case, it's that person who I can bounce an idea off and say, Hey, I'm struggling with this. And we literally walk through it. So there's a whole template. I mean, that's what our organization does is we help people learn the whole template of how to do all of these things. So you can show up. And yes, you will feel uncomfortable, but you'll show up with a little bit more confidence to step in and do the hard thing. What's amazing is that you do it a few times, and you start to go, Oh, that wasn't so bad. And you had said this earlier, huh? You know, I had made this big story up about how they were thinking or what's going on. And in fact, they weren't even thinking that they're like, they're upset because, you know, stuff was going on their family or that look on their face was they had gas, you know, like, whatever. That's a little too. You know, it's just like, oh, you know, like, and this is where we need to become students of human behavior. Hmm.

Dr. Leah OH: 42:26

Yeah. So I think there's so much power to and acknowledging that it's likely to feel uncomfortable that it's likely to be a struggle. And that takes me back when I had my first child is looking at a parenting podcast. And the woman said, It's hard because it's hard, not because you're doing it wrong. And it was like a light bulb epiphany moment, like, Oh, yes, this is just hard. And it's okay. It doesn't mean that I'm failing here. And it does get easy. You build up some confidence, but you recognize this might always be a challenge. And if we recognize that, it becomes a lot easier, absolutely. Perfect. So I have two, two final questions for you. And they cannot. So I'm the communicative leader, I really like to leave listeners with very tangible, pragmatic, pragmatic leadership or communication tips that they can integrate. Right away. So my first question for our leaders out there managers, directors, supervisors, and then for our employees of all ranks, so what do you what do you want to leave them with?

Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry: 43:39

Yeah. When you're needing to have a hard conversation, first and foremost, be curious. Then speak up. Be curious. Speak up, be curious, speak up. In a meeting, as you start a card conversation, really dig into being curious as opposed to certain you have an idea about what's going on, you're probably wrong. So get more than 5% of available, available information. To me that's like, absolutely critical. The other thing I would say is this, this a really helpful tip, that helps me a lot. And it may because it's slightly out of context. It may sound funny joke, folks, but it'll probably make sense. When we start that conversation, so I've been curious. Now I'm gonna about speak up to actually start with a little bit of vulnerability. So Leah, if you and I are having a conversation, I've been curious. I'm really trying to understand what happened in that meeting. So this is the second big tip. It's to start with Haley. I loved it. I really want to have a conversation about this, but I have to tell you, this is a been vulnerable part. I'm a little nervous, I'm anxious, because I don't want to upset you. Or I don't want to have you be upset with me. I value our relationship. So I'm a little anxious right now. And even just doing that, all of a sudden, you're like, oh, like your heart slightly. And you're like, Oh, he's not trying to cut me off at the knees. In fact, he's feeling a bit nervous and anxious right now. And that changes. How you see my intention in this moment in that matter. So two things, two things, listeners, be curious, speak up. And they will as you initiate the conversation, especially the Speak Up part. Name, how you're feeling? Mm hmm. You know, name it say, No, I'm feeling whatever. Like, for me, that's often what I feel. So that's why it's well practiced. Because I do want Pete, you know, and I'm an avoider by the way, like, I'm the avoider, make a mess. I'm an avoider. So for me, it's like, it takes me a while to actually have a hard conversation. But I've really learned to start with that being a bit vulnerable. And look, at the end of the day, we can't control what another person is going to do. But this increases the probability that it will be successful.

Dr. Leah OH: 46:14

And just think that the power especially if we have a formal leader says, I just need to let you know going into this and feeling a little anxious, or I really value this relationship. And so I'm feeling nervous. Absolutely. Yeah, we're role modeling that, you know, this is part of the workplace, like you say, We're shaping culture in such a positive ways.

Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry: 46:35

Yeah, exactly. And I think that's another that's actually a really great point as well. So when you're vulnerable listener, just say, Hey, I'm a little anxious, you know, I don't want you to upset you get you upset with me what I'm doing this because I really take my job as a leader seriously. And I think these are the moments as we all talked about, we want to build this last 8% culture. These are the moments that create, you know, our culture. And so even though I'm a bit uncomfortable, I'm still gonna have that conversation because of that really important purpose. And so I hope you can see that and hope we can have this conversation in a, in a good way.

Dr. Leah OH: 47:07

Yeah, I think it's taking a lot of what we already have playing in our minds, that is invisible. And then I think to to just make that clear for others. Absolutely. Excellent. Well, JP, thank you so much for being on the communicative leader. It was really a delightful conversation. I've learned so much and I know our listeners will as well.

Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry: 47:32

Oh, absolutely. My pleasure. Thank you, Leah, the good work you're doing, you know, I know it's making a difference. So it was my pleasure to be on.

Dr. Leah OH: 47:41

All right, my friends. That wraps up our conversation today. Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose. And looking forward to chatting with you again soon on the communicative leader.