Leadership & Education: A Conversation with Nick Greif VP, Go-to-Market Strategy & Communications at InStride

Nick makes the link between continued education and leadership explicit. 

We talk about ROI and other traditional tangible outcomes, but we also talk about other benefits of lifelong learning - including more diverse and more capable workplaces. 

What else? 

Nick chats with us about rethinking the traditional bachelor's degree required approach. Why? 

Well, a lot of really intelligent, really motivated folks can bring a lot of good to your organization if we unpack what we assume comes along with an individual who has a degree in hand. 

Here are the links to some of the success stories we talk about:

• Ashley (we discuss specifically): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuaKvvj21Wo
• Additional learner success stories: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLenXzvOJi0EkRLPPmRRy3JKskCMgA-zHt

Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose.

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Transcript

Dr. Leah OH: 0:00

Nik grief is a VP of go to market strategy and communications at instride. Nick knows his stuff. He specializes in developing initiatives that drive organizational growth, social responsibility and bottom line results. Nick talks to us about the intersection of leadership and education and helps us to consider innovative ways to improve organizational culture and enhance diversity in organizations. Hello, and welcome to the communicative leader hosted by me, Dr. Leah Omilion-Hodges. My friends call me Dr. OH. I'm a professor of communication and leadership communication expert, and the communicative leader. We're working to make your work life what you want it to be. Nick, I'm really excited to chat with you today and explore that intersection of leadership and education and communication. And before we do that, can you give us some background, maybe what led you to where you are today?

Nick Greif: 1:03

Yeah, happy to and really appreciate you having me on today. Docker. So my journey has mostly been about following interesting leadership opportunities. Now you could see that Curiosity has been woven the whole way through. So I began my career in management consulting, because I knew that that would expose me to a lot of different projects and challenges, and helping me build a wide foundation of knowledge. And then from there, I moved over into public policy, which had long been a passion of mine. So I became an economic adviser to the mayor of Los Angeles, and then later spent time as a policy director, and finally, Chief of Staff for a city legislator. And working with elected leaders in particular was definitely a crash course in both leadership and communication. So after about eight years in government, I then stepped back into the private sector to seek new challenges, and ended up in social impact technology. And so currently, that's where I work, I work at a company called instride. Where a social impact at tech startup education technology, that is changing how employees upskill and attain education, like getting their employers to offer tuition free education to their staff.

Dr. Leah OH: 2:12

Yeah, really, really cool. Nick, and I love what really stuck with me was that curity city driven career, because then you're engaged, you're having fun, you're learning. And I think that helps to guard us against so many of you know, not feeling motivated, not feeling driven, not not knowing what's next. But by kind of tugging on that curiosity. Thread. You know, you you've had an incredible career and so much to go, yeah. So we've kind of hinted on your organization's you're within stride, and it's really innovative. So instead of in, this is my take, so let me know, if I if I'm not quite hitting the nail on the head. So instead of that traditional tuition benefit that many don't take advantage of your organization offers these professional customized development programs for employees. So a two parter can talk to us about this. And why this approach over the traditional model?

Nick Greif: 3:13

Yeah, you're, you've got 100%, right. So traditional tuition reimbursement, which for those that aren't familiar, is where you know, you as an employee are offered this benefit from your company. And they're essentially going to repay you for some or all of the tuition you spend on your education. But it's on you to go figure out where you want to study what you want to study how to find the cash to pay up front, and then get the right grades, you need to then submit for reimbursement which could take six to nine to 12 months after you initially spend that money. And so the main problems with that model, and what we're trying to fix, in addition to the fact that only one to 2% of employees, and of using that benefit in a given year, is that it puts up a lot of walls, a lot of barriers to, frankly, the exact employees that really could use his benefit and make the most out of it. In particular, the fact that you've got to shell out 1000s of dollars for your tuition ahead of time means that you're already locking out everybody who doesn't have 1000s of dollars in their pocket that they can, you know, spend and wait six months to get back. You're also telling people who have had either, you know, what we call educational trauma had a tough experience the education world, you're saying, hey, you've got to go and figure this all out. Maybe Maybe maybe the complexity of the system didn't make you feel very good last time. And now we're saying again, if you want to use this benefit, you've got to go figure it out, figure out all the applications get it figured out the forms, you get to decide what you want to take. So we take all that and we say okay, let's if we were to redesign this from bottom to top, how would we make this as accessible and open to employees as possible to get that education so we do a few things. One, we work with education providers, ranging from skills providers, like simply learn high school diploma providers, like Career Online High School, all the way to doctorates degrees, Masters bachelors places like Arizona State University And we create a direct billing model where the employer, the company pays directly to the academic provider, the employee never has to pay any money out of pocket. The second thing we do is we put all those options together into a marketplace, it's gotten, you know, up to 3000 plus options for the employee to really look into, and it's all in one place, easy for them to figure out, okay, I'm looking for, you know, XYZ learning opportunity. And you could filter by all those things, there's even a pathfinder that will ask you questions, you know, what are you looking for in education journey, and spit out, you know, the types of programs that align with your interests. And then the final thing we do is we have academic coaches, who will reach out to and talk to, you know, registered participants employees at these companies, and, and understand their needs, and help them understand their benefit. And so they've got someone holding their hand the whole way, you know, in cases is a daunting experience, which I know attaining education is for many.

Dr. Leah OH: 5:55

Yeah, I just so much of what you said really resonated, because I think, like my educator heart is just so excited right now. Because what you're saying, I experienced that with the traditional model, the students, and I don't know what to do here, I don't have the time with us. And even when I was doing my master's, I was working full time, but I just got my foot in industry. And I actually had asked my brother to pay for my class upfront because of that tuition benefit, you know, it didn't come in until after I submitted the grade. So again, all of this to streamline and to and to remove those barriers. And to I'm thinking you so only one to 2% of employees typically take the traditional route.

Nick Greif: 6:41

Yep, that's correct. And we, we have, you know, with our, with our corporate partners, you know, we've seen participation rates up to 30% in a given year, because of how easy you make that on ramp. And at the end of the day, it's really a question that you know, the companies do you want people to use this benefit, because, frankly, a lot of times, we look at the benefits suites that we see when we go to our HR benefits page, some of those things are there because employees want them. And some of them are just there, because it feels like they should be and no one actually really wants you to use it because it cost the company money. And so for us, a lot of our conversations with corporations is about how this is a strategic benefit. This is not just me, look, obviously I'd love all day just to be here to get companies to pay for free education for their employees, my social impact public policies, you know, my background is all for that. But, you know, obviously, that's not going to get a company to say yes, and it's really about, look, this is better for your company, you're gonna retain more of your employees, you're gonna be able to hire better caliber of employees, you're gonna get a more engaged workforce. And so all of that, you know, comps to make it a really a win win for both sides. Yeah,

Dr. Leah OH: 7:46

exactly. And if you're seeing up to 30% engagement, and you're thinking, a department of ton, if three of them are in there, and learning we recognize it's probably going to start rubbing off on others. And if we're thinking of that return on investment, if we have people retooling and continuing to engage in this, then the quality of what we're doing is better. So yeah, thanks. So when, when, when I'm biased, I'm an educator. But still, it's really hard to see a downside here. And another thing I found that your organization's doing, I really feel strongly about this too, as stars are skilled worker, or skilled through alternative routes. And and you talk about how hard it can be to get hired without a bachelor's and that is just, that's just the truth right now, it might change, but that's where we are. And so this program, it helps to enrich people who are interested in developing more skills. So when I was thinking about this, it was wondering, and this is probably a question that you and your team get. But how we'll do when we take individuals who go through a program like stars? How are they enriching workplaces organizations in a way that maybe are traditional that bachelor's to industry that route? Maybe that that those new hires might not necessarily be able to do?

Nick Greif: 9:10

Yeah, I mean, look, all the research shows that diverse workplaces create better outcomes, create more profit for companies, you know, because diversity of experience is diversity of thought, right? And you're gonna get different perspectives that are gonna help you catch, you know, pitfalls you would have otherwise not noticed. And so, what we see on the kind of the skills based hiring front, we're big proponents of doing this, we actually work with, you know, sort of our corporate partners to help them translate what is currently bachelor's degree required to the actual relevant skills that are needed. So you know, an example of that as we've worked with Medtronic and major medical device organization with 60 of their different job families, you know, looking at skills taxonomies doing the external and internal research and stakeholder interviews to figure out okay, what actually do you need to do these roles successfully, and then taking that One line that says bachelor's degree required actually breaking down, its into its component skills. What that allows you to do is open up your hiring pool, you're going to have more people eligible for those roles, which when it's a tight labor market, as it has been the last few years, it's really valuable. But it's also going to mean that you can bring in individuals that maybe otherwise wouldn't be able to join your organization, because they're locked out because of that requirement. And unfortunately, through you know, the way that our country in its social fabric or you know, the struggles that we've had with that often means that underrepresented groups, low income individuals, tend to have a lower rate of bachelor's degree attainment. And so you're essentially locking out your organization from a lot of its dei goals. But the key here is that we see this sometimes where companies have D goals, and they tend to try to accomplish them, or they don't try to But what ends up happening as they, they make progress on it, but often at the entry level. And then as you go further up the organization, the organization looks less and less diverse. So it's critical here is that it didn't strike, we're not saying bachelor's degrees aren't valuable, they're incredibly valuable. They're as valuable as they've ever been, if not more. So all the research shows that you're going to get a much greater career progression more take home pay over time, you know, if you have that degree, but should that be the barrier to get in the door? Or should you be able to have relevant skills that you could have gotten all sorts of different ways to get in the door, and then internally, that company invests in you helps you get your bachelor's degree helps you get the education, you need to continue to move up that career and that career ladder. And now what you've done is you've actually created a workforce that has diversity of thought, diversity of experience, and it's going to be able to then also be a really strong future proofed talent pipeline that you can ensure and, and grow internally. Yeah,

Dr. Leah OH: 11:54

and there's so many I, I'm thinking about a culture of an organization like that is one I want to be a part of one that recognizes, you know, Strength isn't just tied to this very traditional and limiting route, one that prizes, and supports Professional Development and Diversity in different ways. And another thing I like that you brought up in the answers kind of unpacking that bachelor degree requirements. So I think that's something we use these HR templates that have already been through legal, and we don't think about it again, we're doing this for decades. Right? So just taking a minute to step back and saying, Well, what really goes into this? What is it that we're expecting as part of this, and a lot of times like critical thought, right? Reasoning, the ability to play nicely in the sandbox with others, those are things like you're saying that we can demonstrate in other ways. So really, really powerful work. So my next question, and we've kind of hinted on this, but I'm thinking about kind of the questions you get about return on investment are those tangible outcomes? So I bet employers you get them and maybe potential vendors collaboratives that you're working with? So how do you respond to those questions about essentially, from the organizational standpoint? What's in it for me? Yeah,

Nick Greif: 13:22

definitely, you know, we're a social impact company, and the companies we work with, often, you know, we're aligned on mission, but nobody's a charity here, right? The end of the day, it's like, if you're not going to find a way to make the your investment in any HR benefit worth your while, as a company, you're not going to do it. And so for us, you know, it's critical that companies understand how this investment is financially beneficial to them, because otherwise they won't do it. And if we're not going to be able to accomplish that goal of getting that tuition free education provided to individuals across the country and, and the world. And so there's kind of a few main components that, you know, through our research and our work with, you know, corporate partners, we've seen really significant returns on investment. The first and and sort of largest is around retention. And I mentioned this a little bit earlier, but retaining your employees incredibly valuable turnover is so costly, the the cost to hire the cost to train, the cost of not having someone in that role during that interim period, is really substantial. Way more than what it costs to provide somebody education, you know, and so what we see is that participants in our education programs at the corporate partners we work with retaining a 90 plus percent level versus an average of 16%. So you're seeing a 3x reduction in attrition. So right there, you're basically paying for your program just to your retention benefits alone. The more importantly, an organization with low turnover as an organization with a lot of institutional knowledge, you've got the ability to have people that stay inside the company that know that business, who then can grow and promote into greater roles and having education and training along the way enables us Those individuals to get those skills to be eligible for those promotions. And so what we also see is program participants are promoted up to 2.5 to 3.5x, the rate of non participants. The other thing that we see, it's been really exciting. And a few of our corporate partners, where we are able to get some demographic data is that, you know, individuals from under underrepresented backgrounds tend to participate in these programs at often double their rate proportional to population within the company. And so what you're seeing there is that individuals who didn't really have access to the traditional formal education system, often probably due to cost and the fact that tuition costs have increased double inflation for the last like 40 years. Now, it wasn't because he didn't want to go to school, it's because there were barriers in the way. So he dropped those barriers, and they're going to participate, and thus be able to, you know, be promoted and work up the career ladder. And then the final, you know, kind of big three that we like to talk about is just, you know, future proofing your workforce. And so, we've got, you know, everyone's of course, going to talk about technological innovation and AI and how that's changing the nature of work and changing the roles that, you know, that will need to be that will need to exist in the future. All of that just still boils down to, if you don't have broad sets of skills, if you don't have the opportunity to rescale or upskill, in a way that keeps your talent, knowledge relevant, you know, it's gonna be really hard for you to, you know, continue to to work in certain segments of the workforce. But for companies, that's a that's an existential threat, right. And so, helping your employees manage that transition transition isn't just for them, it's also for you as the business. And so those are the kind of the main three areas that we see really significant ROI that usually leads to think it's a 226% return on investment. So essentially, you're getting $3 For every dollar you put in. Wow,

Dr. Leah OH: 16:51

that's incredible, right. And if we're thinking about managing an organization and large organizations from that to a device manufacturer, if you tell me I can up my retention for employees, that they're more likely to get promoted. We have diversity and thinking, let's dei and also future proofing. Like, well, so what's the catch? Right? And I'm not asking you to tell me, I don't think there's a catch. Again, I am fully behind all of this. But it just, you know, it makes sense for the social good. And if that is not, like you said, are not running nonprofits here. But at the same time, you have such concrete positive outcomes, it's really hard to see a drawback to this. Yeah.

Nick Greif: 17:41

And that's, you know, that's why we see with, I think, at least half of our corporate partners, you know, within that first year that we launched the program, half of those partners then expand the program. And we've had zero attrition in terms of corporate partners that had lost the program. So we've never had a corporate partner that lost the program and later said, you know, what, I don't want to do this anymore. So the that shows you that like, you know, once once someone says, Once someone's binding and says, Yes, I think this makes sense. I think there's there's a return here. But then you get to actually prove it in the pudding. Right? They launch that program. And then they all say, yep, this was worth it. And many of them say, it was worth it. How do we go further? How do we increase the intuition? How do we allow? How do we enable a employee to gift this benefit to a dependent? Right? You know, there's all these different ways you can Yeah, yeah, very

Dr. Leah OH: 18:25

cool. And listeners 100% of maintaining these partnerships is literally unheard of. So, so well done. You know, you're doing it right. So my follow up question again, a I'm an educator, I'm a leadership communication scholar. So for me this link between learning and leading these are these are so tightly wound, right, we can't untangle them. So again, in my mind, at least, we can't have one without the other. But can you talk to me about how your organization I bet you have some great conversations about this connection between learning professional development and leadership? Yeah,

Nick Greif: 19:08

first 100% agree with you. We talked about lifelong learning at instride all the time. You know, we we don't just offer the programs we offer to corporate partners that we work with, we also offer internally, so we have our own program called step forward. We cover 100% of tuition and over 3000 different learning options, you know, all the way up to doctor's degrees, you know, for all of our employees, and that's because we believe wholeheartedly in lifelong learning and the value of education and in particular, around leadership. You know, frankly, if you're not a curious person, and you're not interested in continued learning, I don't believe you can be a really strong leader. I just I don't I haven't seen it, right. Listening and curiosity are key elements of successful leadership. A leader isn't the person who walks in the room and says, here's what we do. A leader is the person who walks in the room and says, What's the All, what what are you seeing? Tell me your thoughts. And they sit back and they wait. And when everyone's had their chance to talk, and importantly, usually, you make sure that the three people who didn't talk you at you ask, Hey, Jane, Jan, what was your What was your thought, and pull out the introverts as well, then you've got all the information to make a reasonable, you know, reasonable decision and take a leadership action. That's critical and curiosity about your employees, your asking about their experience, is also a huge part of leadership, you know, as you leaders tend, of course, to skew a little older, for obvious reasons, right? You don't get into a leadership position, usually at the first stage in your career. But if you're not thinking about and learning and reading about what's happening for the experiences of the generations below you, then you're not going to understand them. And so that's all part of the culture of lifelong learning. And internally, it is right. To go back to your question more directly. We do career boot camps, you know, within our company, we do career asked me anything's with our executives, you know, where it's just an intimate group, we usually cap it at, like 20 participants, so that it can be a really authentic, honest conversation, you know, and it's, it's literally ask me anything, you know, whatever you want to talk about, from a career point of view. And so we definitely believe that that accessibility, that openness and talking about the hard topics is also it's also critical. Mm hmm.

Dr. Leah OH: 21:29

Yeah. And so, so important, right. So even if you have this leadership, formal leadership role, if we're not continuing to learn, you know, kind of going back to this, that we're not future proofing ourselves, right, this idea of being open and flexible, and recognizing when you've never arrived, because it's always ongoing, that if we're not doing those things, then that tenure is going to be short lived, and likely pretty rocky, as well. So Nick, another thing I was thinking about, and getting ready to chat with you today, and this is something I really love about what I get to do are the success stories. So I bet you hear some neat ones, and B individuals. And that might even be from folks in your organization outside the organization, or maybe from employers. So I'm wondering if you have one or two of these that really stand out to you.

Nick Greif: 22:20

I do and it's actually really one of the best parts of the job and working here. So we actually do this series of learner videos that we put together. And we first released them internally, you know, at our all company meetings, and then we released them externally. And it just helps remind us as well as the people we talked to externally, how important our mission is, you know, working in a corporate role, sometimes you can lose sight of the day to day impact you're having on an individual's life, you know, you're thinking about strategy, or, you know, you're working on an op ed or a press release, and you know, whatever it is, you're doing your day to day, and you forget sometimes that you know, you're having these these big programs that are growing and having impact. But at the end of the day, it's an individual life that's being changed by tuition, free education. And that's having ripple effects in their personal life, their family's life and their community. And so, you know, I can send you some of these links to these learning videos as you show us later. Yeah, one of the videos that I really enjoyed, that I saw recently, it was about a woman named Ashley, who took advantage lab corpse advantage education program offered through inscribe, so she's a mother of two and was feeling fairly stagnant in her career, until LabCorp, offered their education program that meant that she could of course pursue her education for free. So she enrolled in a it focus program and graduated I believe this past May. And a few months later, she was promoted to be an IT Business Analyst at at LabCorp. And so what that story tells me is it's really impact on both sides. So for her, of course, she's growing her career increased take home pay, you know, helpful for her family, and her feeling of self worth and what her career goals are. But for LabCorp it rolls are in hot demand, they are hard to fill, it is it is a very challenging place to to hiring. And so through this program, whatever that costed that it you know, certain certificate or degree that you know that she enrolled, and they didn't have to hire a new person to do that they were able to upskill somebody internally, that person already knew the business already adopted all the trainings, and the procedures and HR and all that stuff immediately could transition and start day one essentially having impact. And so you're seeing that where that Win Win comes in internally. The other quick example I give you is for a organization called Intermountain Health and so Intermountain is a health system in what I've learned recently is called the intermountain west, which apparently are the states to the west of the West Coast states, but east of the Midwest. So all those states learn something new. I didn't know that there was another phrase what was between the Midwest and the west coast, but I always wondered cuz you've really lovely states there that so apparently is the intermountain west. So anyway, they're a major health provider there. And they have just incredible results with their program. And, in particular, you know, at this time, we've got a national nursing shortage, hmm, you've probably heard about how traveling nurses can make just incredibly high salaries, as you can imagine the ability to solve to do the mission, I guess I said earlier, you know, we're not all charities here, but technically, they are nonprofit. And so you know, for them, 100% of their registered nurses that have enrolled in bachelors of science in nursing degrees, 100% of men retain, since the start of the program, whether they finished the program, they're still in the program. And so when you think about the value of having trained nurses at your health system to be able to deliver health care to people who need it, and accomplish your mission as a health system. I mean, it's just, it's just staggering. But that's what happens when you invest in your people they invest.

Dr. Leah OH: 26:00

Yeah, and it's, it's just so powerful, because they think the the Atmel antiquated but pretty traditional view is organizations were like, Why am I going to do this for my employees, right? Like it is, I'm not a charity, but recognizing that if we just take one step back a little bit more macro approach and recognizing we're retaining these relationships they have, we're retaining the organizational knowledge. Right, and we're able to use you're saying upskill them at the same point, then then, as you know, that is what's in it for you organization. So, yeah, really, really phenomenal how it's so mutually beneficial there. So Nick, I have two final questions for you. They're related. And this is a way we always and the communicative leader, because I think that there are so many folks who want to make their work life what they want it to be. And with leadership advice and communication, these are things we don't need to spend years necessarily working on, we can make small changes that will lead to big differences. And it's clear, you're immersed in this field, you know, leadership, you're in communications, this framing, these talking points probably fall to you and your team. So I'm wondering, you know, considering all of your, your wealth of experience, what are some recommendations you have for our title leaders out there and managers, directors, maybe at the C suite? What what do you want to leave them with?

Nick Greif: 27:30

Yeah, there's, there's kind of a give you the big three, sort of leadership and management mantras that I try to live by. One is, you know, create psychological safety. The other is make it clear what the commander's intent is. And the third is foster autonomy and ownership and your people sort of break each of those down. psychological safety, hopefully, your listeners have heard about, but if they haven't, it's really just about making sure that people feel comfortable in your organization, sharing their ideas, pointing out problems, and having respectful disagreements, we all know and have worked for or seen leaders that are sort of command and control, you know, do it do it how I say, individuals, or try to shift blame to others, you know, to shifted away from themselves, that is incredibly short sighted, and leads to an organization that is brittle, and is unlikely to succeed. And the reason for that is, I think, quite obvious, which is that if people won't speak up, you're never gonna get their best ideas, you're not tapping into and maximizing their potential, you're actually minimizing their potential because all they're going to do is paint within the lines you give them. But your lines and what you think the right lines are, are always true. And they're often limited by your own personal experiences. Each of us is just a vessel for what we've gotten so far in our X number of years on this earth. And the idea that you wouldn't want to maximize that by adding the years of experience of all the people on your team by making it psychologically safe for them to share and speak up. Is is a shame online, so empower people to feel psychologically safe. And the way to do that, of course, is, you know, not to shame people not to, you know, ship when your team like as a leader, it's your job to fall on the grenade, and it's your job to provide praise, and pass on the great work that your team does. At the end of the day, even if you want to be totally selfless about it, that's gonna get you promoted far faster, you know, this one, this one was this is a slight digression. But, you know, my philosophy has always been like, I want to make myself replaceable, and also know who my replacement is because the only way you're moving up the career ladder is if you've got somebody ready to take your shoes, because if you've made yourself indispensable in your role, and you've pushed down or worse, denigrated those people in the eyes of upper management, then they're not going to feel comfortable moving you from that spot. You want the view. So that's, that's one psychological safety commander's intent and other one, you know, it's a originally military concept, but it's absolutely migrated over in the privates. vector as it should. And that's the idea that your people should understand not just what you want them to do, but why you want them to do. And that's because at the end of the day, you know, in a battle, right on the military side, a plan is only as good as the first shot that's fired. And this is true in the corporate and the corporate world, too. So if people understand what the goal is, then when they actually go out in the world to do it, they don't have to come back to you every time, there's a slight change, to say, hey, what do I need to do it this way, or what do I do next, which, of course, as a manager would suck up all your time, and micro managers have this problem. You want people to know, okay, I know where the goal is. And I can make my own decisions on how to get there, while checking back occasionally to make sure that they're not, you know, off the reservation. And the third is related to that, which is autonomy, and ownership, people on your team are going to hit, you know, whatever their equivalent of 100 110% is, if you've given them some amount of autonomy and ownership, pride in their work to make sure that they know Hey, you you own this project, I the buck may stop with me. But at the end of the day like this is this is your area. And when you do well, and when this area does, well, I'm going to make sure people know that it was about you. So for me, personally, I make this clear. And I manage two teams and instruct one around revenue operations, which includes you know, responding to requests for proposal and, and others ramp communications. And so, you know, with my team members on both sides, I make it very clear to them that, you know, I've got limited attention span, I get pulled in a lot of things like I need them to really own their areas of operation. And it's your job to make sure that that RFP is going to be really strong, and I'm going to come back, I'm going to review it, and I'm going to be your support, and I'm here to bounce ideas off. But you're you're the one who has to figure out how to make this happen. Same on the communication side. And that allows those individuals to rise to their best level. And it also frees you up as a manager to do the things that frankly, you're you know, being paid to do, which is to think strategically take time to work cross functionally, not just to manage the things that are you know, that your team has been set up to do to long long answer your question, but hopefully, hopefully helpful.

Dr. Leah OH: 32:06

No, I really, really thoughtful response. I love to I mean, these all tied together so nicely, right? I think if we're thinking about this, giving authority and ownership, I think so many employees really just want to be seen and valued for what they were hired to do. And when you're giving them that opportunity, then that should be tied into that psychological safety as well. And recognizing that I have a place here, I am valued here. Right? All right, people are going to look to me for these things. And to with the with the intent, it's one thing to know what we're doing now. But having that deeper level understanding, like you said, when something changes when we need to shift a little when someone needs a decision and a meeting and you aren't physically there, then employees able with some, you know, relative degree of competence to be able to to make that decision. Yeah.

Nick Greif: 33:08

And the thing I'd say is, it all ties back to learning as well, right? If you have a good employee, you don't want them to leave. And the way that they're not going to leave is if they continue to learn and grow. And so that autonomy and ownership allows them to stretch their wings and allows them to learn new things. You know, you're you're there to help guide them and make sure they don't, you know, they don't fly too close to the sun. Right. But you know, at the end of the day, that's how they learn. And their learning is going to benefit you. But also keep them interested and keep them around and not have them say okay, I'm stunted here, and I'm gonna leave. Yeah.

Dr. Leah OH: 33:40

Yeah. So all things that I mean, that's going to be helpful these tips helpful no matter what. And so I'm wondering now my follow up to that is now we're thinking about employees all ranks all industries. So maybe we don't have that formal title. And maybe we don't want that formal title. But regardless, what what advice do you want to leave those friends with? Yeah,

Nick Greif: 34:04

it's easily my easily my favorite question. And simply simply stay curious. Make sure you're always learning. And the one that I think prompts the most introspection when I say is don't get too comfortable. And what I mean by that is, you know, there are a lot of people I see that gets stagnant in their career because they get into a role that they're good at, and they do a good job. And they get comfortable. Once they understand all the facets of the job, they know how to execute it, day in day out, they can do you know, they can do a passable job, people to get praise, they get, you know, that 3% annual raise. But if you're too comfortable and you aren't stretching into new roles, you're not stretching into new projects, occasionally changing companies, you know, if you're not finding ways to do new things, you're not learning anymore. If you're not learning anymore. You're not going to advance in your career because the folks that did Side promotions that do that see value, they see the people that go above and beyond. And that don't mean that in terms of amount of hours worked, right? This isn't about work 100 hours a week that actually is often not correlated, if not negatively, to promotion. It's about the people that look around and ask curious questions and say, why does this work that way? And should it? And the thing that often happens is you see people that ask that question, they take step one, they don't take step two, which is to go learn the answer. And then they don't take step three, which is to say, hey, I have some ideas about how we could how we could change that, even if it's not in your lane, might be someone else's land. And that's okay, as long as you do go through the right channels, you've worked with that person. And then you guys together can go up to management, say, hey, we had this idea, we think this could work. And, you know, two times out of three, management may say, we already thought about it, we don't want to do it. But one time out to three, it's going to be important, it's going to make a difference. And you got to learn all three of those. And the one of the three that actually makes real difference highlights your value to management in a way that makes you much more likely to move upwards in your career. Yeah,

Dr. Leah OH: 36:04

it's so thoughtful, too. And there's this whole line of literature out there that when we're engaged, when we're curious, that spills over into home life, right, so whether it is the version of us that comes home to dinner, and that is his energy to hang out with the family or the kids or to, you know, engage in recognized sports, or are the one who's not, you know, stagnant at work, and kind of brings that a home because things just aren't quite as exciting as they once were. So their curiosity is a great way to keep kind of plugged in there, Nick, thank you, oh, I'm sorry, go ahead.

Nick Greif: 36:46

say one last thing, you know, I find that it's, it's a manager's job, it's your manager's job to find interesting things for you to do. And maybe that's only 20% of your of your job. But the thing that I've always told my bosses is, if I get bored, I will tell you, if I'm still bored, six months after I tell you, I won't be here anymore. And I think that's a mantra that any employee should feel comfortable having a conversation with their boss, and that's going to highlight to them. One that they have to keep them interested by giving them giving them assignments, it's not something else that was saying, hey, entertaining with toys, it's like, yeah, hey, understand, you know, which today's means you're taking on a little bit more work. But it also highlights to your to your direct report to your manager, that I'm hungry, I want to do I want to grow, that is helpful, because that will keep them focused on you and your development. Yeah, I

Dr. Leah OH: 37:36

really love that. And that's something I'm gonna think about when I'm coaching my students who are near graduation. Because I think that as an employee coming in saying, I'm gonna let you know, and then I'm gonna give it six months. But I think that demonstrates so much to the manager about what a price employee they have there who is communicative and, you know, wants to be engaged, and really clear about what boundaries might be because it's, it's not going to be the right environment for them. Yeah, well, thank you, Nick. This was really a fun conversation. I love this intersection of leading and education. I've learned so much and thank you to the work that you do with your team, with your organization and within communities.

Nick Greif: 38:27

It's my it's my absolute pleasure. Really appreciate you having me on here to talk about my leadership journey and the work that we're doing here at Instagram.

Dr. Leah OH: 38:36

All right, my friends. That wraps up our conversation today. Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose. Looking forward to chatting with you again soon on the communicative leader.