Storytelling and Leadership: A Conversation with CEO and Chief Storyteller, Karen Eber

Karen is the CEO of Eber Leadership Group, an organization that works with Fortune 500 companies on how they build their leaders, teams, and culture. 

You all know we love to chat about leadership, teams, and culture on The Communicative Leader, but Karen takes us a step further to integrate storytelling.

Want your employees to:

• Connect with and more easily comprehend your messages
• Remember what you said
• Feel safe at work

If you answered yes to any of these, then my friends, this episode is for you! 

Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose.

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Transcript

Dr. Leah OH: 0:00

Karen Eber is a keynote speaker and chief storyteller. Her talk on ted.com. How your brain responds to stories and why they're crucial for leaders has almost 2 million views. As the CEO and chief storyteller of Eber leadership group, Karen helps companies reimagine and evolve how they build leaders and teams, transform culture and tell stories. In her upcoming book, the perfect story how to tell stories that inform, influence and inspire. Karen leverages the science of storytelling to create engaging and immersive experiences. In this episode of the communicative leader, Karen walks us through the connection between leadership and storytelling. Hello, and welcome to the communicative leader hosted by me, Dr. Leah Omilion-Hodges. My friends call me Dr. OH. I'm a Professor of Communication and a leadership communication expert, and the communicative leader. We're working to make your work life what you want it to be. So, Karen, thank you for joining us today on the communicative leader, you are an expert in storytelling. And what's more, you nestle it and communication and connected to leadership. And I'm so excited to geek out with you over these areas today. This is going to be so fast, right? Before we go into these ins and outs, can you give us a little background on yourself and what brought you to this area?

Karen Eber: 1:32

Yeah, I have a company Eber leadership group where we work with Fortune 500 companies on how they're building their leaders, teams and culture. And I came to this from the other side of the desk, working as a head of culture and chief learning officer in a business in General Electric and kind of leadership for part of the business and in Deloitte and working at Hewlett Packard and so in, excuse me in those roles, I was always trying to help people persuade people to make investment in leaders and in teams and technology. And I found that maybe one person could say yes, and many people could say no, and stories are such a helpful way in those roles to persuade, and slow the nose. And so as I opened my company and gave my TED talk, it's a space that we have leaned into quite a bit. Yeah, what a cool way to capitalize on all of those experiences. And listeners, if you're not familiar with some of these other companies, I'm sure we've heard the names. But the cultures of these companies are phenomenal. These are things that literally in classrooms, we teach as best practice and a gold standard. And I just love that you get to bring that and capitalize on that in a larger way now. So Karen, we know your background, this passion, I want to hear a bit about your personal view of storytelling. And I think we've all we know a textbook definition, we have our own ways of thinking of storytelling. But as this world renowned expert, what should we be mindful of as it relates to storytelling. I like to think of storytelling. As I heard, I heard a physician say this, in Doctors Without Borders, he describes storytelling as the basic unit of human understanding. So it's not just this dynamic way to communicate, it really becomes a fundamental way to exchange information in a memorable way. And I find that in business settings, we shy away from this thinking I have to present judo, or I have to just do a presentation because that's too soft, or maybe people will lose respect for me. But what we're really doing when we do that, it's just wasting the most precious thing people can give us which is their attention. And when you start to incorporate some of the science of storytelling and are mindful to use it so that it does capture the audience's attention, your messages just have a better impact. They land more, they land strongly and people are more likely to take action and remember them later. And so the first message is it's not a nice to have or soft thing. The more things become automated the ability anyone has to help connect with people on a personal level on an individual level is key.

Dr. Leah OH: 4:34

Being gold, yes. And I love that idea of it being a basic unit of human connection. So if we even think about the way that we raise children and I kind of skipping ahead, but if we take that approach with our youngest and most impressionable and use it as a foundation for solid ethics, morals, general understanding, you're right. It's kind of counterintuitive. That, as adults, we tend to abandon it just kind of toss that to the side. Excellent. So Karen, I want to think about your TED Talk. And in this talk is widely viewed. If you haven't watched it yet, listeners, you need to, like Karen talks about storytelling is something that is engaging and creates immersive experiences. And when I was preparing for this, I'm like, Yes, I completely agree. But I realize I don't have the language necessarily, or the the explanation to articulate that. So we know it's powerful. But can you kind of talk to us about that engagement in the immersion?

Karen Eber: 5:40

Yeah, there's a couple of things that are happening in the brain when someone is listening to a story or reading it. And the first is that you end up using just more real estate of the brain. So just in a regular lecture or meaning when someone's giving an update, a small walnut sized part of the brain is activated, called Verna keys area. And this is just pure language comprehension words go in your brain says yes, we know them or no, we don't. And it's understood. When you start listening to a story, and you are getting your senses engaged in your hearing more dynamic descriptors, we go from this walnut size of the brain to using almost the full spectrum of the brain. And so right away real estate, you know, tells us more is better. But more importantly than that, a few things start to happen as we're listening to a story. The first is that the listeners brain or the reader, their brain will light up in the same activity as the storytellers. So there were these experiments where people were taken into a MRI machine, they were shown an episode of a BBC show, and their brain activity was measured. And then those same people were put back into the MRI machine a second time. And this time, they had to recount those episodes that they saw, and their brain activity was measured. And then the third time new people went into the MRI machine, they listened to the recording of the recounted episode that the first person had. So you had someone that watched it recounted it, and then people that listen to the recounting. And what they found across all three instances was very, very similar neural activity. And this term neural coupling came up. It was from a neuroscientist Yuri Hassan out of Princeton, which is recognizing that we have a very similar pattern, we have this mirrored activity, when we're listening to stories, which said, In simple terms, it makes storytelling almost like this artificial reality for the person experiencing it. Because your brain puts you in it. This is why we're watching the movie and our heart is racing as James Bond runs across a rooftop, even when we're sitting in the chair not moving. But also, as someone tells a story, think of those moments where you feel a wave of Goosebumps or you feel of anticipation or maybe even your your eyes will up a little that is because that when someone is telling a story that creates an increase in empathy in the listener, and that leads to an increase in the bonding chemical oxytocin. So oxytocin sends this silent signal to the brain of this person feels safe to be around, I feel a connection around. It's often a hormone for mothers and babies. And you can't fake it, you can't command it, it's something that is a true response to this moment, the more oxytocin, an individual has the larger increase in trust that the person experiences for the storyteller. So the very act of a leader telling a story can lead to this neural chemical shift, but also lead to this increase in trust. So if you think of a off site, or maybe a team retreat that you've been on, and you come away, feeling a little more bonded with the people around you, it's because you told these stories over meals and had these moments of bonding that are genuine and true. And so neurologically, all of that is happening when we're listening to a story and it's not enough to tell one the way you tell one is going to make a difference in the way someone experiences it. Mm hmm. Gosh, there's so much important content in there any I think for me the takeaways is an organizational scholar. You know, psychological safety, thankfully, is a huge concept. Now that is widely talked about, because for decades and decades and decades, we just overlooked that right didn't didn't matter wasn't relevant. But if we are able to literally

Dr. Leah OH: 9:47

up these these hormones that help people to feel safe, and then we can recognize how that is going to kind of translate in that psychological safety, who have recently done an episode on employee voice and speaking up, we can see how this can be a really lovely catalyst to transforming a culture in a pro social way. And you're smiling. You're like, yeah, yeah. And I love that you do this. This is phenomenal. Karen. Yeah. And I and psychological safety is key is the foundation for creating any healthy work environment. I am like you have I am so happy.

Karen Eber: 10:25

It's in the site Geist, because for years, people heard the terms and pictures, couches and got really Yes, but I talked to people about it is really it's the energy of work, because when psychological safety isn't present, energy is drained, trying to anticipate which version of the leader is going to show up, which version of the meeting do we have to prepare for, the uncertainty is expensive. And so that eliminates met energy or calories that can go to actually getting the work done. When psychological safety is present, all of that energy goes to the work and you're not feeling as depleted or, or drained from what's happening. And so when you tell a story, that does create this neural chemical shift, and it does have oxytocin released in the listeners brain, and that's the settle like this person is safe to be around. It's a calorie savings, right? You were getting this connection and helping people feel comfortable in a way that they may not. Or if you're going through a big organizational change that you need to do to forge some of these things that are really just draining calories. Draining energy. Yeah. And I like that that's a simple equation, but powerful uncertainty equals expensive. And then we can look at expensive, a number of different perspectives. But I think when we reduce it to that, that is the most telling of ways to explain what uncertainty does to individuals and to work into organizations. Yeah, I want to give credit to that to Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett, she's a neuroscientist out of Northeastern. She does a lot. She has a wonderful book about emotions and how they're made. But given the challenges in the world, today, you are seeing her pop up and more common news day, regular articles and stuff. And I think that's a really powerful thing of in a time of uncertainty. Uncertainty is really expensive. And it has a toll whether that's in the world in life in work. And so she's a great place to dig into for for understanding of all of that.

Dr. Leah OH: 12:34

Yeah, excellent. So Karen, I want to keep fangirling over your TED talk for a few minutes and integrate your book, the perfect story, how to tell stories that inform, influence and inspire. So when we think of stories, I think for some people, this is still maybe a little bit abstract. Because we we might think, stories, or hear stories and think about reading with our children, or maybe when we were a child, but what are other everyday ways that we see or use storytelling.

Karen Eber: 13:07

Any possibility, there are stories that can create a shift in energy, or that can start to combined and the most artificial of circumstances. So I share this in the book I, you know, really early in my career was at my first business dinner. It's how I show up. I'm an introvert, by the way, very key, the plot, I show up, you know, first business dinner, it's to have dinner with different companies that are thinking about working together, and they wanted to work with my company. So I'm like, bracing myself for a sales pitch. This already feels incredibly awkward. And I have no idea what to talk about. And I show up and luck would have it that the entire table was the introverts of introverts. Energy. And this table was one where you're looking around the restaurant wishing you read any of these other tables, because they were so lively. And we were like we are the awkward table. It's like, you know, on the last day of a helium balloon when it's like sinking slowly to the float, that was our table. And we're doing everything we can to avoid talking because no one knows what to do. Because anytime we try to talk, it falls flat. So we're, you know, drinking water or picking at our food. And this one man at the table says he clears his throat and he says so. So I'm putting a deck on my house. And we all are surprised and looking at him like What is he talking about? But also thank goodness someone is talking Greek. What is this deck for? And so he starts describing how he had to relocate this woodpile, because he needed to be able to put all the pilings in place and he's on his second pass stacking the wood in a wheelbarrow and moving it to the edge of the yard. He takes a log off the pile comes face to face with a raccoon He freezes, the raccoon freezes, their hands are both up there under arrest. even funnier, because the raccoon has the mass, right? So he's describing this, he gets up. And he's like demonstrating this. And we're all laughing and watching, like, what did you do? And he said, he took a couple of steps back. And so you tell us a story. And the table completely shifted, because then other people start telling stories about unwanted house guests. And we from the silent table to the table everyone was now looking at. And so this was really artificial setting, you're here for a business meeting, you don't know each other. It's about sales. You're all introverts, like recipe for disaster, story shifted our energy and allowed for us to really start to enjoy each other. And here's the thing, the guy that told the story, his name was Aaron. I took his call every time after that, because he felt like a friend. And he was willing to be courageous in this moment and lead us to a different space. And I don't know if we ever did work together. But I was always interested to talk to him. And so the when to use storytelling is is really when not to use storytelling, which we can talk about that. But it doesn't have to be a presentation, or a TED talk, or a big formal speech or a toast, it can be in these moments where you just want to shift or you want to do something different that can make a big, dynamic experience.

Dr. Leah OH: 16:25

Yeah, and that's so powerful, because we all find ourselves in these situations that are unexpected, uncomfortable. For them. You're thinking about stress, sweat and stress, what we're there for, but you're right, using storytelling, then again, going back to that basic human connection, unit of human connection. As we have rapport, we have empathy, we're laughing together. And as you noted, that that led to an open line of communication. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's phenomenal. Perfect, perfect story, Emily to integrate that. Yeah. If the short of it is there is always a time for storytelling. The only time yeah, that's not to tell story.

Karen Eber: 17:15

I will get the question. What story should we tell for return the office shouldn't when you have a decision like that a policy and make a date, don't dress it in a story. Because the moment you do, everyone listening is good or reading, they're going to detect it, people, you're really good at sniffing out what feels like manipulation or that isn't true. And the moment you do that, you lose the trust of the people around you. Instead, communicate them I always say treat people like an adult, just communicate it. Use stories to talk about the challenges in the organization that you're overcoming, and how you're pursuing the strategy or what you've learned or failures. But don't use it to dress up something because you think there's like a perfect way to tell this that people are going to love just put yourself in the place of if I heard this wrapped in a story when I'd feel like I was being manipulated or what I feel like it's helpful. And generally, policies regulations, just communicate them the rest of the time you stories. Yep. That makes perfect sense. And like you said, it's it's a gut check. But we can also do a quick audience poll with others and say, Is this how we'd want to receive this message? And like you said, it was probably a resounding no, just tell me what I need to do. And why and when, and we're good. Yeah.

Dr. Leah OH: 18:39

So Karen, another thing I really enjoyed about your book is it's rooted in neuroscience. And this is not something that I have a background in, but it was really fascinating. And you talk about these five factory settings of the brain, and you relate them to creating messages and how we communicate. So could you this is a multi part question, but kind of walk us through the settings and kind of give us some understanding of what's at play in the background. So for giving a talk seeking to persuade even working, you know, messaging, they get kids to clean up or eat broccoli, not killing one another, you know, how does this relate to our brain and messaging,

Karen Eber: 19:21

the most underlying definition of the five factory settings of the brain are that it's not enough to tell a story, the way you tell one is going to make a difference. And there are certain ways our brain naturally responds to communication and stories. And I believe when people can understand these they recognize they have different choices to make when telling a story, so that they can pull different levers, they can make choices of how they want to tell a story. So they're a bit involved. We'll do the lighter version. What I'm going to do is I'm going to tell the five and then I'll talk through each one and what the considerations are. The first one is that your brain is lazy. The second is that it makes assumptions. Since the third is that it stores experiences and memories into this library of files. The fourth is it sorts in, in and out groups it towards people and experiences into in groups and out groups. And the fifth is that it seeks pleasure and it avoids pain. So if we can Yeah, we take the first three that your brain is lazy, it makes assumptions and it sorts information into this library of files. What that means is the brain being lazy this comes from some of that research from from Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett. So think of your brain like a broker, number one goal, keep your body alive. And that's a combination of running all the systems and you know, keeping your body actually functioning. But it also is helping make predictions for how do I move my foot when I'm going down stairs, because your brain is constantly making these predictions, which is tied to the second one around the assumptions. Because the faster your brain makes predictions, the faster it can conserve calories. The number one goal of the brain is not to go bankrupt of calories, it's to keep you alive. So it's always going to be trying to make these decisions of where is it worth spending calories and where it is in running your body isn't a choice, it knows it has to put calories there. But where are you paying attention to is a choice. And so your brain won't be emerged, you're immersed all the time, right? You're you're naturally going to drift out and a conversation and a meeting and a movie and a book. Because that's natural, our brain kind of dips in and out to reflect reset and to take a lighter moment. These are the nights you come home, you're exhausted and you put on the TV show that you've binged or the movie that you've seen several times, because you just don't want to think that's your body saying, look, let's conserve some calories here. What that means in a story is that you're going to need to make the brand spend calories, you're going to need to put in unexpected events or build the tension or put in specific details that makes the brain hit a speed bump and say, Huh, because it can't make the assumptions that it's trying to mix. This is how the first two play together, right, the brain is always trying to hoard calories, it's going to naturally be making assumptions. Because the faster it makes a prediction or an assumption, the faster it can conserve calories. So you want to disrupt it's, it's assumptions, we learn when we get a prediction or an assumption wrong is called a prediction error. So you want to put in things in that story that are going to make the brain say, Oh, I didn't see that company and see that coming. This is the joke or the punch line, you're like, Oh, I did not see that. You feel it? Right? That's your brain being like, Alright, we're gonna put a calorie to this. Yeah. And those pair with this idea that as we take in information through our senses, they get stamped with emotions. So it's almost like when you take a photo on your phone, if you swipe up, you can see that stamped on that photo is the location, the date, the F stop the size of the photo, the aperture, like everything is stamped on there without you doing anything. Something similar happens when we're taking in information through our senses is we're experiencing emotions. They these memories, these experiences get stamped with emotions, and they get stored in our long term memory. And these get put into what I call the library of files. Is this something we've already done? And it's validating it is this, you know, known and familiar, or is this related to something we've done maybe slightly different? Or is this brand new? Do we need a whole new folder, the brain scans this library of files, subconsciously, to make predictions, all of our understanding decisions, assumptions, they're coming off of our experiences. So the three of these played together, because you want to make the brain spend calories, you want to slow down assumptions. And sometimes you want to connect to what people know. Because they immediately get an understanding of what you're trying to do in the story. So when I say connect to what people know, I mean, something like when the Cathedral of Notre DOM was on fire, the new stations in the US would show the location they put up a map and show you the cathedral and fire but then they would show you the Eiffel Tower. For many people, when you hear Paris, you think of the Eiffel Tower. And so they're trying to like anchor to what you know of oh, here's where it is. And it's just a subtle anchoring to what people know. Those things can make a difference in a story and they become different choices. And then the last two factory settings play together because we are naturally seeking these in groups and out groups and this is where psychological safety comes in as well. In groups our ideas, beliefs, individuals, people that we share a familiarity with, could even be aspirations. Were more buying something because of what we want to become. That is a part of an in group Wherever there's something that is familiar and comfortable, there's often psychological safety and that of this feels comfortable. And known. outgroups are where we notice our differences. And charities do this, like when there's a natural disaster, and you hear the story of one person who lost their home is struggling to get food, clothing, shelter, and you're listening to this inside your home with electricity and food near you. And you recognize how different your circumstances are. So an outgroup isn't bad, it's different and recognizing that different. And when you're telling a story, you have this choice of am I trying to create a story where people feel like a member of an in group or an out group, or both, depending on what we're doing in this story. The last is that at our most simple level, we seek pleasure and avoid pain. So we have the cocktail of neural chemicals that are dopamine,serotonin, and oxytocin that are released, and in moments of reward, connection, bonding. And these are the few good ones, these are the goosebump ones and good moments. There are also neural chemicals like adrenaline, norepinephrine, cortisol that are released in moments where we need to focus where there's something not quite right. And the body's saying, Pay attention. When we listen to stories, we experience these shifts in neural chemicals, depending on how compelling the story is. And so you want to be thinking about am I telling a feel good story, or a story that brings story or am I telling a story that is intentionally uncomfortable. So all of these five, give you a range of things from how you're making the brain, pay attention and spend calories to either lean into assumptions or slow them to kind of leaning into what is familiar for the person and how you can relate to them that helped them connect to experiences they've had to whether they feel a member of an in group or an out group or both, or even whether you're telling an uncomfortable story or not. And so these then get to the way the story is told makes a difference in the experience.

Dr. Leah OH: 27:09

Mm hmm. Yeah, that, thank you. Thank you for all of that. I've learned so so much in those couple moments. And I, when you're walking us through that, I found myself going back to the story you shared about that business dinner. And I guess kind of as a check, would a prediction error, perhaps be when Aaron said, Hey, I'm building a deck? Would that be the kind of moment that disrupted? It could be slow? So we often hear prediction errors around like the body. So say, you're going to stand up and you stumble? That's the brain saying no, we didn't. We didn't send the right things down the right pathway. We need to do that differently next time. There is still a version of this of we are making assumptions all the time. So when someone starts talking or like, gosh, what is Aaron going to talk about?

Karen Eber: 28:03

Get this? Oh, I didn't see that. Okay, you do give me Nope, we were wrong. Now I want to pay attention so that we can learn differently.

Dr. Leah OH: 28:13

And I was thinking too, and I'm not sure if this is how it works. But when you're talking about and I'm sure all of these things happen instantaneously in our brains. But the in and out, I was thinking about how we'll just the act, the emergent act of storytelling can collectively allow us to kind of them sort as a group into this in like recognizing, like you said, This feels good. We have these hormones a sense of safety. Do you see it kind of functioning that way too? Or is it a little different?

Unknown: 28:46

No, it does. You know, if you think of a job interview, a job interview is a chance as a candidate to demonstrate where you are a member of an in group and where you are a member of an out group. So you want to demonstrate where you're a member of an in group where you are a great candidate for that role. You've got the knowledge, the experience, you relate well to the team, you're in addition, you're not, you know,

Karen Eber: 29:12

culture fit, you are bringing unique things to it. And they can see that right, that is the this person feels like they would bring wonderful things. And that's great. You also though want to show when you're a member of an out group where you have experiences that they don't have, and that's part of this addition, you are bringing things that compliment but don't compete in a way that feels like oh, this person would never be successful here. And both are important in a job interview because you want to make sure you are helping them really understand your value. So in in a context like that you can start to see it's important to think about both and how am I different and now how do I tell that in a way that is welcoming and exciting to the organization? Yeah, I think they're just anyway, we

Dr. Leah OH: 30:00

Look at storytelling the more time we spend thinking about it, the more we recognize it's ever present in such a helpful device, a safety device, I don't even know if devices the right word, but like a powerful element at play, and the more time we spend thinking about it, the more that we can lean into that. Absolutely. Yeah, that's so fascinating. So carrying this next question, we've kind of touched on this. Because we've just spent a lot of time thinking about the way the brain works. And so what happens in our brains when we listen to stories versus listening to just information? Yeah,

Unknown: 30:43

it's a bit of what we touched on of that we're Nicky's area where this walnut sized part of your brain, it's almost like your brain has this lexicon. So I'm listening to you talk when I'm listening to a lecture in university or someone's giving an update, or maybe I'm even reading something. And the brain is subconsciously comparing all of those things that it is taking and processing to the lexicon. And it's saying,

Karen Eber: 31:08

Do I Do I have an understanding of this? Yes or no? Right? When it's no, we either decide, well, let me learn what that is, or I don't know it, we're just gonna move on. Yep. That is, and we're not committing to memory, we're not interacting with it in any way. And so because we've just walked through the five factory settings of the brain, and I gave the example of Paris, and I said, you know, the maps were showing the Cathedral of Notre Dom, but also the Eiffel Tower, and now you're picturing the Eiffel Tower in your head. That is part of what stories do just by saying, the Cathedral of Notre DOM on fire, your brain probably pulls up some image of that, whatever that means to you. Or when I mentioned the Eiffel Tower, your brain does that. I'm not asking you to do it, you're not even asking your brain to do it. It's just doing it because of this library of files. And because we make predictions, it's almost like your brain is going this one. Oh, yeah, we know what that is. Okay. And so it becomes so much more dynamic, because it's giving me things to engage with in a different way. And the more you engage with it, the more you're going to think about it, the more you're going to have it be memorable, the more likely you're going to take action on it. And so, from a attention standpoint, alone, you know, attention is the biggest gift that our audience can give us a story is gonna just make your words have so much more weight and value.

Dr. Leah OH: 32:33

Yeah, and to just think that information and in certainly, it's not to dismiss the importance of sometimes just conveying policy procedure. But from this kind of simple binary, do I understand this? Do I not understand it? Maybe a follow up? Do I need to learn more? Or can I dismiss this to this very vivid, engaging, like you said, dynamic picture that then is making all of these other connections for us. I mean, that's such a powerful way for us to consider these differences in delivering, delivering content.

Karen Eber: 33:09

And what happens, unfortunately, is that it is really hard to be a leader. Now, the demands on your time are extraordinary, because it's not just delivering business results, which that alone is enough. You know, reading in this time, and making sure that you are developing the skills like empathy, and balancing empathy, and accountability. And all of these things are new skills for many people. And being able to bring the best out of every individual some of these are are just very different types of skills. And the tendency when there's a presentation is that we just don't leave ourselves enough time to prepare. And so there's no story to tell if you haven't given yourself enough time to think about what and telling when in the moment can can be uncomfortable until you've had some practice added. I find most people spend maybe a couple hours working on the slides they want to share and maybe five minutes again about what they want to say. And the problem with that, is it no one will remember what you said, no one is going to be really moved or engaged by it and such a misstep that we do, because if you really want to make sure people are taking information and making a decision having a discussion taking action. You need to be thoughtful about how you're pulling that together. And repurposing the time to think about the best way to really engage the audience and do that is important. Yeah, and even if it's just thinking them a flipping that usage of time and spending the couple hours considering what's the story, what is the beginning, the middle, the end, you know, what are these key messages and then maybe just one or two slides, maybe some image based slides would be enough to background right. Instead, reopen power Well, you know, whatever our favorite too is, when we start picking slides as though we're picking pieces of a quilt patchwork that we're gonna put together. Oh, I can use this one, I can use this one. And then you're piecing together. Like, that's enough. But you haven't stopped to think about who am I talking to? What is it that I want them to do? What are the right messages for that? And then at the very end, what are the visual aids including with data, you know, we let the content drive it. But by doing that, we end up not communicating anything. Mm hmm. Yep, the aid becomes a crutch and taking away from the story. No.

Dr. Leah OH: 35:34

So this next question, and you've kind of already started to touch on this, and I'm really interested in your perspective, considering your experience and your your organization now. But what do you wish Karen more more of our leaders or formal authority? You know, managers, directors will be CEOs? What do you wish they knew about the effects of storytelling and the connection between storytelling and leadership?

Karen Eber: 36:03

I think you can't have one without the other. I think that there are leaders that are nervous to tell stories because they don't want to share personal information. And storytelling is personal. 100%. Storytelling is personal. But personal doesn't mean Private. Private are things that you don't care to share with others. Maybe that's things about yourself or your family. You know, I have a very high privacy barrier, that I don't share stories about my family. But I will gladly tell you stories about mistakes that I made. Because I want people to learn, I can use that as an anecdote. And so your privacy barrier will be different. Each person has a different privacy barrier. But every story you tell his personal, even if you're telling someone else's story, because you are making it personal, from your perspective, and why you are the one telling it. And I think that that word personal gets really intimidating to leaders who then think, well, I don't want to get up and say the most personal thing ever, or be extremely vulnerable. And they miss that sharing your perspective on the latest strategy, or your perspective on something that team did that you're proud of, you know, you go in you, you go behind the scenes and share some of these things. They go such a long way and people feeling like you trust them enough to share it with them, and to creating a community of psychological safety. If you want to be a great leader, you need to embrace storytelling, and you need to practice getting to your style of personal stories and sharing things that are going to connect with your your team. I love that they're intertwined and that they're indispensable to one another.

Dr. Leah OH: 37:55

So Karen, I have two final questions for you. And we always on the communicative leader and we end thinking really pragmatically about leadership or leadership communication. So first, for our formal leaders, we've kind of talked about that already. So let's think about employees all ranks all industries? What, what is going to be helpful for them? Or maybe what can they start to do when they're interacting with their own manager or their own teams, in order to use storytelling to be more effective persuasive communicators?

Karen Eber: 38:31

Yeah, the trick of storytelling is it actually isn't the story. It's the audience, they are the stories always start with the audience. So this is true, whether you are getting ready to give a communication or communication or tell a story, ground yourself with these four questions. Because every communications should start here. You want to think about who you're talking to? And what is it that you want them to come away thinking or feeling. After you're done sharing your story. You want to and write out a sentence for this. You want to write out a sentence for what do you want them to? To know or do after. So part of it is the thinking and feeling the shift the internal shift, and then part of it is the external shift. And then you want to think about where's their mindset today? And what might be an obstacle. And this can be done in five minutes before a meeting. But what you're really trying to do is take a moment to think about what is it that I'm trying to do and who am I doing this for and let me just take a brief moment to try to get some MVP for like, who are they and where are they at today? So if you're getting ready for a one on one with your leader, and perfect timing here we are coming up into some of your end activities before things like that. Take a moment and think about like what do you want them to come away feeling about you or thinking about you? Maybe even give yourself a word that you want them to think of when they think What do you want the to do, is there any any action that you want them to do? Think about that? What does that look like? Where's their mindset today? And given all of those things? And is there anything that could be an obstacle, because when you get clarity on those things, you can take a communication or a story and make sure you are telling it in a way that you hit those things. So the biggest piece of storytelling is it has absolutely nothing to do with the story. It always begins with the audience.

Dr. Leah OH: 40:27

Yeah, I love that. When you're saying these, it's making me think about servant leadership. And this is a slight twist. But you know, servant leaders are essentially looking to remove obstacles for others. And that's, it sounds like in this way, what really strong storytellers can do and thinking ahead of time, who is my audience? What are their needs? What are my hopes, what are possible obstacles or motivation blocks that I need to be aware of, and recognizing that, as you said, to me take a few minutes to reflect we don't need to spend days for this. And I'm sure the more we practice it, the easier it gets. But recognizing that we can have a much better outcome. And doing this little bit of earlier legwork.

Karen Eber: 41:15

You might not remove the obstacle, but the story is going to help you navigate it or see maybe even a completely different path to go down. Yeah, yeah. And this last question, again, you've left us a so many tips. And I'm wondering if there's one tip for those who are either striving for management are currently in a is there something that today they can start doing to think about how they become better storytellers. If he's truly looking for an opportunity to tell a story to recognize, no one is going to invite you to do it, no one's going to say start the meeting or a presentation or your update with a story. No one is going to say don't don't share the data, tell us a story. Find a moment, you're just going to try telling a story and a one on one and a meeting. Think about what that is do it because the thing about storytelling is it is compounding interest, and telling a story it earns you the right to tell more stories, the most intimidating thing is you have to start. And so finding what feels like a non threatening way or not intimidating place to tell one is key. And it's it really comes down to like set an agreement with yourself that you are going to tell one story in the next week, and maybe just with a coworker in a casual meeting. But when you start looking for opportunities and you see them, then you can start doing it more and more and more. And the stories then help shape your leadership and shape how people understand you. You know, anyone that can open doors and help people consider different perspectives or a different path are always greatly valued. And it stories are such a great way to do that. And if you are an introvert and just naturally speaking up in settings like that doesn't feel comfortable. Recognize that introverts have storytelling as a superpower. Because as you are reflecting you sometimes notice details that other people don't, which make for great opportunities to pull that in and a thoughtful moment and help broaden an idea or a discussion.

Dr. Leah OH: 43:16

Hmm, gosh, that's so so powerful. And I really liked that idea, too, is we can't wait for the invitation.

Karen Eber: 43:26

You're not gonna get called up on a stage or in a meeting, you just queue spotlights. Let's say, not only are you not going to get that invitation, you're probably going to be told don't tell a story. Most of the time, when I am working with clients, I restart first. They make a list of all these different times they've been told not to tell a story. I'm like, hey, put that list aside, let's go. And they find an opportunity to tell one where they weren't invited. And they were told not to tell one and 100% of the time, it is always worked out wonderfully. So just ignore the discouraging moments and find a place to do it. Yep. Anything to for those folks. Because like you said, I think so many statistics rule in business still, you know, that's just where we are. Now, I think we're seeing that shift. You probably know that better than anyone. But I think that when you tell the story, and you keep telling stories and finding those moments, people are actually going to remember your statistics and data better, more accurately, perhaps when it is attached to these other things. And it might open up more opportunities for people to, like you said, look at you for leadership and your perspective. Yeah, and even more than remembering the data. They're gonna remember the idea around the data, because data about people and things and projects and what we want to do about it. And so that's what you really want, you know, data ever speaks for itself because we all make assumptions and our brains are making these predictions based on Our experiences, all of our experiences are different. So when you aren't taking people through that, you're risking people making their own assumptions. And they're all different and we don't know. But when you can take people through that story, you're getting everyone to a common place for discussion and come away remembering the same things.

Dr. Leah OH: 45:19

Karen, thank you. I've had so much fun. I've learned so much. I know I'm going to be returning to this conversation many times and I want to thank you again for sharing your experience, your time and your expertise with us.

Karen Eber: 45:33

Thank you for having me. Such a fun conversation.

Dr. Leah OH: 45:37

All right, my friends. That wraps up our conversation today. Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose. I'm looking forward to chatting with you again soon on the communicative leader.