Writing as Problem-Solving & Leadership: A Conversation with Pam Hurley

Pam has been helping individuals and corporations improve their writing for the past 30 years.

Pam reframes writing from just another item on the to-do list to problem solving.

This is so powerful!

When viewed as problem solving, we see the need for expertise, for strategy, and for planning.

Pam also discusses the ROI when written communication is effective, and calls attention to the time and frustration saved when processes are in place.

Connect with Pam: LinkedIn, Pam Hurley; Pam@hurleywrite.com; Cell: 910-233-7670

Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose.

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Transcript

Dr. Leah OH: 0:00

Pam Hurley is joining us today and the communicative leader. Pam is the owner of Hurley Write Inc, and for the past 30 years, she's been empowering professional corporate teams to become better writers and speakers. Her wealth of experience has allowed her to lead within the intersection of writing technology and leadership. And today we're going to talk about writing as problem solving and as the unsung hero of business efficiency. Hello, and welcome to the communicative leader hosted by me, Dr. Leah Omilion-Hodges. My friends call me Dr. OH. I'm a Professor of Communication and a leadership communication expert, and the communicative leader. We're working to make your work life what you want it to be. Pam, thank you for joining us today. Before we dive into our conversation, can you introduce yourself and your experience in both technical writing and leadership roles? Absolutely.

Pam Hurley: 1:00

Thank you very much for having me. I'm very excited to be to be on the podcast. So my name is Pam Hurley, I have a PhD in technical writing from the University of South Carolina. And I started the business about 35 years ago when I was only 10. Just kidding. See the video? Yeah, that's a lie. But so I think that's the CEO of the company for the past 30 something years. And so, you know, as a leader of the company, running your own business, you learn quite a bit. So yeah, so that's, that's, that's my background, I started in academia, and then started, we started the business.

Dr. Leah OH: 1:42

Yeah, yeah. And that's great. And I appreciate all that you bring to the table, both with the the technical expertise, the research that you've done, and then all of the time that you spent embodying leadership. So with that in mind, Pam, I'm wondering, you know, a few things about technical writing in today's organizations. So could you define the role for us? And then tell us how leadership kind of interacts or plays into that role? Sure,

Pam Hurley: 2:10

absolutely. So it's it. What's interesting to me is that we have a lot of professionals who are ill prepared to do any kind of technical writing in the workplace. So we were with professionals, we call them non writers, because they don't want to, they don't want to write, and they get in, you know, they get into their industry, and they're like, oh, gosh, I have to write, I was talking to an engineer the other day, and he actually he, and I've heard this sentiment before. It's like, I didn't want to write all I wanted to do was be an engineer. So it's, it's kind of an interesting thing. So what happens is that, you know, folks, graduates, graduate from college, Masters PhD, and they get into the workplace, and they feel, oh, all of a sudden, I have to do technical writing, well, I only had one semester of that in college. And then the expectation is by the organization is that there isn't they're prepared to do that. So then what happens, of course, is, you know, leadership should be actively onboarding folks to, to be able to write particular documents. And they don't do that. And so because we have an expectation that they know how to write with Buffer, we don't have a standard for that. And so it's kind of an interesting dynamic in that, you know, leader should be taking a more active role in ensuring them helping people on board in any particular organization, and learn how to write the kinds of documents that the organization expects.

Dr. Leah OH: 3:56

Yeah, and that's, that's such a great point, because they think you're right, there's this expectation, you've you've earned this degree with bachelors, masters, match masters, PhD. So we think, of course, you can write but you can't necessarily write well, right. Well, for the audience in which you're expected to do so. Exactly. Yeah. Really, really great insight, Pam. And so when we're thinking about being a successful technical writer, what are some key qualities or skills that you believe in, you know, your expertise make for that successful technical writer? Right. So the professionals

Pam Hurley: 4:33

we work with are, you know, aren't necessarily technical writers, but they have to write technical documents. So there's that distinction. So one of the things they have to be able to do well, is to treat writing as problem solving. And they don't write because writing is often treated in in an organization as well. This is just something you have to do but it's really not Important or, you know, it is important, but we're not going to train you how to do it. And it's that kind of thing. So it's really an interesting thing in that companies will pay lip service to this idea. We want people to write well, but they don't give them the tools to do that. Right. And so one of the things we talk a lot about in our workshops is you have to treat writing as problem solving, writing as problem solving on paper. So just as you would approach any problem you solve in the workplace, or in your personal life, or whatever, writing is exactly the same thing. But it's not treated that way. So strategy and planning are the two most important things that any that any writer can do. Mm hmm.

Dr. Leah OH: 5:47

Yes. And I imagine them when you use that language, when you help them with that frame, it becomes a lot more accessible to people who previously just saw it as some output or something they had to check off their list. Absolutely.

Pam Hurley: 6:01

Absolutely. Because because the pizza professionals we work with, are there already great problem solvers. Let's be honest, if they weren't great problem solvers, they wouldn't be working in the fields that they do. But they've just never been introduced, introduced to the idea that you know, the writing that they do, they're solving a problem and trying to communicate a particular message to a specific audience for a particular outcome, or action. And to your point, yeah, we go through the steps of problem solving with them. And then when they understand that just it does tend to make it a lot more accessible and understandable for them.

Dr. Leah OH: 6:35

Yeah, very, very cool. Pam, I love that. And so my follow up, you've kind of already touched on some of these. And I'm wondering how these key qualities or skills that helped make someone a better writer? How do those same qualities contribute to them being an effective leader?

Pam Hurley: 6:52

Well, yeah, absolutely. And there's, there's definitely a parallel, right, because leaders are involved in solving problems. It's the same same kind of idea. What's the problem? Oh, so I'm trying to solve and how do I go about it. And so effective leaders solve problems, and they come up with multiple solutions to solve those problems. And so the same thing, same thing is true with writing or communication. When you think about how do I solve a problem? A lot of it depends on who am I communicating with? What do I know about them? I've heard as having this discussion few of our clients yesterday, and we were talking about anyone who has an email, but neither, you know, you have to know how your audience is going to react to the information that you're providing. So that you can then structure the email in such a way that speaks to them. And so leaders have to do that as well. It's funny, I was just looking at LinkedIn, and this guy got laid off from Google, and I'm looking at this this layoff notice, and it's just, it's just terrible. It's about Oui oui, oui, oui, oui, instead of your ear, seek it, we got to do this, or we got to do that and get to that, and then it goes, and hey, pick up these resources to help you. Instead of thinking about, you know, not that Google. I shouldn't say cares is the wrong word. But they should but anyway, you know, layoffs or layoffs are, you know, are difficult thing. But you also have to think about, you know, long term, how am I How am I going to be perceived, and we see this all the time with these PR disasters, you know, from these major companies, and it live is just how they work things and how they, you know, how they let people go, and these kinds of things that speak to speak to leadership? Mm hmm.

Dr. Leah OH: 8:45

Yeah, yeah, you're right in talking about, you know, when you're saying that I was thinking, they just didn't finish thinking through the problem solving, right? They hit on some of the high points, of course, but without all of that due diligence, then we can easily look at it and say, Ooh, this, you know, you have that visceral reaction, like, this just doesn't feel right. This has a yucky, elegant, icky feel, because it didn't hit the mark. That didn't hit the mark.

Pam Hurley: 9:13

Yeah, that's exactly right. And you think, well, a company like Google, do they care? Do they? Do they need to care? You know, maybe not, I don't know, kind of Google rules a role, I guess. Yeah. You know, you also think about things like, you often have to think about big things like, you know, long term, how are you going to be perceived? And those kinds of things, and we talk a lot about that, you know, in our workshops as well. A lot of it is about how you're perceived in the workplace. And so a person who can communicate well in writing is not perceived as being as competent as someone who can. Yep,

Dr. Leah OH: 9:54

exactly. Exactly. I made me think I knew someone who would say good Morning in an email, but it would be morning MO You are like you're literally saying Good grief. This is why you are communicating. And again, really intelligent high, you know, many degrees. But taking the time that communication fell below him, I think it just wasn't something that he believed needed his full attention. It's like, no, let's backtrack. Let's unpack this a little bit.

Pam Hurley: 10:30

Ya know, to your point. I mean, you think and you know, one little word. Yeah, Miss Val misuse. And you're like, This guy's got all these degrees and everything, but uh, sorry. Oh, gosh. I mean, exactly. Yeah. Take a minute, as you said, yeah, the minute, you know, when you make sure that your communication is up to par, and that you've taken the time and people are going to perceive you as thoughtful and things like that. Little Heroes like, oh, they just take the time and not they're not they're not diligent, I mean, speaks all kinds of issues.

Dr. Leah OH: 11:05

I agree. I truly do not ascribe the word experts. Even if they are in the certain rates, that is not my immediate adjective that I go to when I hit when I'm seeing that. Exactly. This is a perfect segue, Pam. So I know you have this idea. And I love this, that you talk about writing as the unsung hero of business efficiency. And I love that. So can you kind of tell us more about this kind of what went into your thought process? And what this looks like in though in an organization? Oh,

Pam Hurley: 11:39

absolutely. Yeah. So this is, I'll make it short, because it can be very long. But one of the things that that we find is that people waste a tremendous amount of time and energy, writing poor documents, reviewing and then you have these constant iterations, because there's no process in place. So that people are on boarded, people know what that you know, people have people know what's expected up in terms of their writing, the review process is streamlined. There's a certain number of iterations, all this kind of stuff. So it's just kind of like the wild wild west. In that way, I'm gonna write something and then I'm gonna write it for Leah, and you're Leah's gonna mark it up and back, and then oh, he has left? No, I have to write for Ben. So people are constantly writing to this movie target, instead of understanding that readability studies tell us what good writing is. And that applies to every document in every audience, so it doesn't matter who you're writing for. Right? As long as you haven't have. That sounds contradictory. But what I mean by that is simply that the concepts of good writing remain the same. And so even if Ben says, Oh, I just like bullets. Okay, well, that doesn't mean that that's everything should be bulleted that just because Vince says that's what he first. So you know, a lot of these organizations, they just don't have a process in place, which creates this chaos when it comes to writing, there's a lot of time and money and time and money wasted. I don't know if you've ever read writing for dollars writing to please. But it's a book by Joseph Campbell. And he has all these great case studies in there about the amount of money that organizations have saved by rewriting and things like that. I mean, there's a real, there's a real ROI on writing and reviewing, and companies just don't just don't realize it.

Dr. Leah OH: 13:38

Yes, yes, you are. You're sorry, it's I think it's still seen as a soft skill. And everyone says, of course, lip service, I want this weakness, this is so important. But in my experience, it oftentimes stops there. And as you're pointing out, and I think two drafts, right, so someone will be working in Google Drive, someone will be working on a copy downloaded to their hard drive, you know, when we have these large teams, and then we also include those rewrites and other preferences and and you're right, everyone there has spent a whole day if not more, on something that, you know, we

Pam Hurley: 14:16

work with a client recently, and they were using slack as their as their way to make comments on people's drafts. A really slack comments and it's just like, what you're treating it like Slack if and you're not treating it as a review, like using Track Changes in Word and that kind of thing. So to your point, you have to think about what what is the medium that people are using to get these things accomplished? So from using slack that channel does not lends it lends itself well to making comments on people's writing. It's the same thing we see with PowerPoint slide. We have a we have a client recently and they're using PowerPoint for their proposals and what presentations, not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But there are two different uses. And so what that requires is that we have a different PowerPoint for proposals, and we have a different PowerPoint for the presentations. And people were actually when they were doing their oral presentations with these PowerPoints, people are getting up and walking out. The door higher up in the government nap. No, it's not simply this job. Yeah, yeah,

Dr. Leah OH: 15:30

exactly. And so this is that is a perfect example for this next question. So and you might even tease that one out a little more. Imagine you have others. And I'm wondering if you could share a specific instance, from your experience where we have effective writing that has led to improved outcomes?

Pam Hurley: 15:50

Oh, we have so many case studies or badly. I mean, it is it is we have case study after case study after case study. And I will tell you that most of our business is repeat business. And there's a reason for that I mean, company's particular virus. So we have I was working on a case study. Yeah, yesterday, and it was a pharma company. And they said that their compliance has increased by about 3%. Because we help them with their SOPs. So it's, it's things like that some of it is, you know, competence levels, we measure competence as well. Competence levels are typically up and rest of the organization organizations we've worked with. So a lot of it is, you know, long term kinds of, you know, following defaults, three months, six months, that kind of thing, and have asked them to measure those things for us in terms of what they're seeing some of it's anecdotal, but some of it is real, you know, asking asking them about, you know, the number of iterations you're going through the reviews are going through, we have a cut down the time, that kind of thing. So we have Yes, lots of case studies on that for sure. Yeah.

Dr. Leah OH: 17:01

I mean, if we just think a 30% increase in compliance, I mean, every company is like, wow. Yeah, that's huge. Yeah. That's incredible. Pam. So this is in a probably in line with the SOPs you're talking about, and some of these other, you know, Meteor documents that you're helping organizations with? We know a lot of times as technical writing, we have jargon, we have really complex concepts. So how can either writers or those, you know, employees who are serving that technical writing function? How can they communicate effectively with both technical and non technical team members or audiences?

Pam Hurley: 17:46

That that is a great question. So what most folks less professionals we work with tend to do is they tend to communicate, so they tend to assume. So I'm going to assume that you know what I mean, I'm going to assume that you understand this jargon, I'm going to make all these assumptions. And they don't do that because they're lazy, but they do that, because that's the easiest thing to do. And quite frankly, a lot of them haven't been taught any, any different. This is what we did. And so one of the things we talk a lot about is writing so that, you know, somebody who is unfamiliar with the topic can understand it. Now, that doesn't mean just jargon, and that kind of that kind of thing else, I mean, structuring paragraphs and sentences, according to what mutability studies tell us, is how readers read. But yeah, people do tend to and then I'm gonna use the biggest word I possibly can. Because it makes me sound smart. And if you think about the way academia teaches people that 100% Yeah, you know, let's get right to Soros. Yeah, let's find a basin and demand for a particular word. When all that does is just confuse the issue. Use the word over and over and over again. Yes, yes, you should, because you're trying to drive home a point. And when you switch terminology, which is something we see a lot, when you switch terminology, all you're doing is raising questions on the part of the reader, your your, your your objective, as a writer is to guide readers, you're the Sherpa, and you're taking readers on the journey. And if the reader comes to me directly inclusion that is on you, that is not on the reader. And I went on a tangent there, but

Dr. Leah OH: 19:31

thanks, X. Yeah, yep. No, I really appreciate that. And I think it shows the responsibility of writing then a lot of people again, when they kind of dismiss us, and this is just the last thing you need to do on a checklist for a project that really short changes everything.

Pam Hurley: 19:49

Absolutely. It absolutely does. Yeah, and that's what a lot of people viewing one of the things you know, we talk with our clients is the document is the deliverable, because it doesn't matter what We'll do behind the scenes if you can't report that in a way that your reader can understand that take up production doesn't really matter which did.

Dr. Leah OH: 20:08

Exactly. And so a follow up to that. So what role so the title leaders and organizations, whether it's a C suite or at the managerial level, how can they help to, you know, enhance the role of communication and technical writing? What is kind of their responsibility in changing the way that their teams or their organizations see this part of the process? Yeah, absolutely.

Pam Hurley: 20:35

Number one, they should value it, and show their team that they that is valued by either getting them help, whatever that is, whether that's a writing course, or purely right, whether that is mentoring it within the organization, or whatever it is, you've got to show, you've got to show your team that you value it by giving them the tools that they need, it's kind of amazing, when you think about, you know, I'm going to become an engineer, and I go into this, this, whatever it is, and they give me all the tools I need to do to engineer but they don't give me the tools I need to improve my writing or enhance my writing or figure out what I need in my writing. And that's actually what I'm going to be delivering. So it's it's, it's mind blowing. So that's the first thing. And then the second thing is they have to be role models, in terms of communication and really assess, how are you communicating? Are your emails full of stuff that didn't take too long to get to the point? Are your meetings rambling? I mean, what how are you modeling? Good communication, because people look to you to be that to be that role model. So if you're not taking the time to, you know, to write good documents, or give people the time they need to write if it's constantly Oh, you got to get this done. Dunk, dunk, dunk, dunk, dunk, dunk by five o'clock today, then what you're telling people is, I don't really value the writing that the writing that you do, this is just something that has to get done. Leaders need to really assess and be very honest with themselves about how are you treating communication in your workplace? And how are you modeling good communication? Yeah,

Dr. Leah OH: 22:25

that's really powerful. And I think too often, those entitled leadership positions, forget how impactful their behaviors are. Yes. And I just I cringe as a leadership communication scholar, when people say, Do as I say, not as I do, I'm like, no, no, you need to find yourself another manager, or another mentor. Yeah, that's exactly exactly what we're hearing here. Yeah,

Pam Hurley: 22:51

you know, it's, it's really interesting. We have a client, they're consultants, and he, we were talking. And he his managers is terrible at giving feedback. And so one of the one of the managers comments was make this crisper. So it's less or something. So he goes to the manager, I mean, he was making a concerted effort to find out from his manager, what the comment meant. Because if you're given a comment, you are responsible for being able to explain what those comments read, and they've done. It's just kind of like, we're just taking a manager and he said, What do you mean, and his manager said to him, Your predecessor knew what that meant? And I'm sorry. Wow. Yep. Wow. I mean, it's just shocking, really, when you think about some of the things and this guy was honest, he's like, I'm just about to quit the job because of my manager. Yep. As a consultant, they were involved in writing reports constantly. And he said, the feedback that I'm getting from our managers, so poor is causing me so much stress that he was really thinking about, about quitting his job. And that's another thing that leaders need to understand. If people have a clear idea of what they're trying to do, in terms of communication, it can create a lot of stress in the workplace, animosity, and it's just, it's not just this kind of thing while we do it, it's the it's communication is the backbone of any good organization.

Dr. Leah OH: 24:31

Exactly. Yeah. I couldn't agree with you more. And I think the other thing is, a lot of our title leaders don't think about two steps out three steps, four steps out, in this gentleman in this example, telling other friends and they're like, No, I wouldn't do it. It's not I wouldn't use that company. I would not fill that role. Right. So things like that. And that word of mouth now is the most powerful I think, in my opinion, for me persuasion that we're seeing. I

Pam Hurley: 25:02

think you're right. Just like I was talking about that Google layoff letter. I mean, this I posted it President posted it on LinkedIn. Yep. Yep, exactly. All these people are gonna say, you're right. It's not just this kind of, you know, in a vacuum. Yeah. You know, social media and media and everything else. And to your point, people are going to talk to other people. And it's just, it's, it's kind of, it's kind of crazy, dangerous, oftentimes think about the communication that they are modeling in the workplace.

Dr. Leah OH: 25:35

Yeah, yeah, I agree. So this got a really nice follow up question. So what are some of these common obstacles that you have seen probably with people coming to you to learn how to write better or to help facilitate better writing in their organizations? So what are some of these these really common experiences that pop up when people are saying, our team just can't communicate to our vendors, or we can't communicate to our audience or stereo stakeholders, whatever that is?

Pam Hurley: 26:07

Yeah, so a lot of people just assume one of the calls we get most often is, well, they can't communicate in this because they need grammar Hill. Grant, my help is the last thing they need, I can promise you that your team's problem is not grammar. Research has even shown that teaching grammar actually can worsen the way that people write. So, you know, we what we try to do with folks with with with prospects is we do what we call communication on it to help them understand where are the problems coming from the other thing that they do, which I think I've alluded to, is they tend to blame the riders. When sometimes it's not the riders, it's the reviewers, because people are getting conflicting feedback. There's no real assessment, they don't really know what the problem is, they don't even know at what level their team is writing, right? Where are they where they need to be. So there's this total lack of recognition about any of that it's just an assumption or a hunch. So that's one of the reasons that we do you know, we do the communication audit with folks. Get in there, figure out what the real problems are, present the findings to them. And then they can do with those findings, what they will, they will hire us great if they want to do something great, but at least they didn't have a have a basic understanding of where where the issues are, and then they can begin to fix them. Mm hmm. Yeah,

Dr. Leah OH: 27:33

that's, that's so great that you start with the audit to help them see. Because I think you're right when, especially in organizations, high stress and a lot of pressure teams and organizations. So when it's not going well, it's a lot easier to point fingers and say, This is the tip of the iceberg. This is what I think it must be. So with that in mind, Pam, are there a couple? You know, if someone just came to you and said, our communication is not working? Do you have like one strategy or two strategies or tips for someone to do right away to kind of assess that or overcome a challenge?

Pam Hurley: 28:12

Well, one of the things we get we try to do is to get them to allow us to do the communication audit. But if they don't do that, what I mean and again, they have to be really honest about the writing that they're doing. The onboarding that they're doing, how are they onboarding P Hilmi? Do you have an onboarding program are you just, you know, I was talking to a client the other day, and he's, he's had, I had to spend so much time on my own, trying to figure out what this organization wants for me in terms of my writing. And that just shouldn't be I mean, he said, I had no idea I was just kind of left on my own. And so we struggling to so be really honest, do you have an onboarding? I mean, what does that look like? If you don't? Why not? Yeah, it's not that difficult to institute but is it just kind of willy nilly and pay him to document figure it out kind of thing, which is what people are going to do this, you know, either either copy and paste or cut. Use that as a moment and pace. But so that's the first thing you got to be really honest about what your issues are. And are you a good leader and he was a model? Are you are you modeling good communication? Are you giving people the time they need to write, which is a big one, you know, there's to your points. We're busy, we're rush, we're both, okay. Well, maybe there's opportunities that you can give people to spend more time writing because writing takes time to be proficient at it, it takes time. It's not something you can just dash off.

Dr. Leah OH: 29:46

Yeah. And in my experience, and I imagine you've seen this, too, excuse me, it's, you know, we invest some time now, but we save a lot of time later. Once we establish these processes are we No, we give people the tools that they need to be successful.

Pam Hurley: 30:04

That's 100%. Correct, man. And that's what people don't get. They want that they want that quick fix. I'm here to tell you, there's no quick fix with writing and people are all gone about AI. I'm telling you, AI is not enough fix machines. If you think you don't know much about AI, you know, we're just not there yet. There is no quick fix. Yeah, writing good writing takes time, you've got to put the time and effort into it. You can get people proficient, you know, a lot of people in you know this as well as I do. So Oh, writing, writing is something you're born with, or you're not. No, it's not. That's me crazy.

Dr. Leah OH: 30:44

Yep. I am with you on that. 100%. So with this in mind, what what is ongoing professional development look like when we're trying to become the best writers that we can be? So that's a?

Pam Hurley: 30:59

That's a great, great question. So we have within our program, we have a complete program, right? It starts with the audit. And then we have an LMS. And we have webinars, and we have coaching. And so we try to make sure that people are able to practice because writing good writing takes practice, it's not something you can just do for five minutes. And we're done. We're done good. And so we have a lot of a lot of things in place for for writers to continue to hone their skills can continue to get the expert feedback. And again, we try to do like before, I know, you know, an after, and then everything in between that the client needs. So sometimes it's office hours, we can walk, or something. Or webinars, sometimes it's coaching, a lot of it just depends on the climate debate.

Dr. Leah OH: 31:50

Yeah, and I think you're gonna, you're pointing out the importance of reflection in being a thoughtful writer and communicator and recognizing, where do we feel competent? What are areas that we feel shaky and need a little feedback on? So I love all those ideas you provided? Right?

Pam Hurley: 32:10

Yeah, no, that's exactly right. Me, you've got to be honest, you can't just assume that you know what the problem is?

Dr. Leah OH: 32:15

Yeah. So Pam, I have two final questions for you. So I'm the communicative leader, we like to leave listeners with pragmatic leadership or communication tips can be advice, it can be a challenge. So to that end, what advice do you have for our titled formal leaders

Pam Hurley: 32:35

understand where your writers are and what they need? That's, that's advice. And that's also a challenge, because that's not an easy thing to do. But you need to be really honest with, with your writers where they are, but also with your reviewers. What does your review process look like? And are you reviewers contributing to the writing problem? Because many times they are we tend to put a lot of faith and trust in our reviewers. And sometimes they're contributing to the problem. Yeah,

Dr. Leah OH: 33:10

yeah, really, really important here, I think that it needs to be a feedback loop. And a lot of times, it's not your

Pam Hurley: 33:19

right to do it to you, and you're gonna mark it up. And then you know, instead of the dialogue, everybody has a dog in the fight. But that's not how we how we treat our documents to your point, like everybody has a dog in the fight. Mm hmm.

Dr. Leah OH: 33:35

Yeah. Final question for you. So we just talked about some advice for former leaders, whether you want to leave employees all ranks across all industries, you know, same thing kind of advice, tips or challenge for them. Yeah.

Pam Hurley: 33:50

So I think the advice is to understand that writing is a process. And that good writing takes time. It is not something that you can do in five minutes, give yourself time and grace, to reflect as you suggest, and to do all the things that need to be done in the writing process, instead of just treating it as something that I can just get done in 15 minutes. And here's the other thing about that. And you can cut this out if you want to, obviously, whatever. But anyway, one of the things we find is that when people do that, when people don't give themselves the time and space, they do what we call overriding. So the document is twice as long as it as it would have been, should have been if they just taken the time to reflect. So while they hate writing, they're actually doing more writing than they should if they had just taken the time to plan reflect and that kind of thing.

Dr. Leah OH: 34:45

Yeah, and that's so powerful, right? Especially if you say okay, writing is this, you know, unfortunate part of my job that I have to do. This is not what I signed up for. It's not what I went to school for, and then to actually spend more time doing it than you need to Oh, yeah, I mean, that's just, that's some some irony for you there. But it's SharePoint. taking that step back and thinking about as a process. And I will always think about writing now is problem solving. I think that's ingenious, and a way to connect it with everyone across any boundaries or differences or identities. Because, I mean, truly, that's what we're trying to do.

Pam Hurley: 35:25

Absolutely. Yeah. It is as important as any task that anyone does in the workplace in any given day. Unless you're a brain surgeon, maybe it's not as important there.

Dr. Leah OH: 35:38

Cash, right, patient notes, right.

Pam Hurley: 35:42

That's right. That's right.

Dr. Leah OH: 35:44

Oh, oh, Pam, is really been a pleasure chatting with you today. I want to thank you for the incredible work that you're doing and the way that you're helping to transform organizations and employees experiences in such a positive way.

Pam Hurley: 36:00

Thank you. And thank you very much for having me. I certainly appreciate this great conversation.

Dr. Leah OH: 36:06

All right, my friends. That wraps up our conversation today. Until next time, you indicate with intention in lead with purpose. Looking forward to chatting with you again soon on the communicative leader.