Women in STEM, Behind the Stats: A Conversation with Julie Sturza

 Julie Sturza kicks off our Women in STEM series.

 Julie  is a pediatric research statistician at the large academic medical center. In this role, she works with physician researchers to design pediatric research studies, conduct and interpret statistical analyses, and assist in the dissemination of research findings through presentations and peer-reviewed publications.

Julie shares her experiences, talks to us about the importance of mentors, work life balance, and gender equality.  This is a really thoughtful and honest conversation and one that I think you'll find yourself returning to. 

Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose.

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Transcript

Dr. Leah OH: 0:00

Julie Sturza joins us today on the communicative leader. Julie is the lead statistician at a large nationally renowned medical center. As a woman in the STEM field, Julie discusses her experiences and shares her insights with us. We discuss unique challenges women may face in a male dominated field in Julie leaves us with thoughtful advice related to mentors supportive networks and work life integration. Hello, and welcome to the communicative leader hosted by me Dr. Leah Omilion-Hodges. My friends call me Dr. OH. I'm a Professor of Communication and a leadership communication expert, and the communicative leader. We're working to make your work life what you want it to be. Oh, Julie, thank you for joining us today on the communicative leader. I'm so excited to have you, as a woman in the STEM field. And as a friend, I'm really excited to have this conversation. So before we dive into your experiences, can you give us a little bit of your background, and then help us to understand kind of what inspired you to pursue that career in the STEM field.

Julie Sturza: 1:12

Actually, I for having me, I'm really excited to talk to you today. In terms of what drew me into my career, I think I knew I always wanted to do something in the field of medicine or health. Probably a lot of that had to do with my mom who was a microbiologist, and then a physician's assistant. Later in life, I always looked up to her and loved hearing what she brought home from work in terms of the the cool topics that she was working on. So an undergrad I was pre med and English major. And then I went to grad school and got a master's in public health and specifically in environmental epidemiology, which is the study of how humans are impacted on a population level and on an individual level by things that are in the water or the air or the food that we eat. And so after grad school, I did a fellowship at the Environmental Protection Agency in Washington, DC. And I did a lot of work on children's environmental health care. But I also ended up working with a lot of environmental economists who really use a lot of statistics in the work that they did, and reminded me how much I loved math and was missing the math part. And kind of showed me this, the way that biostatistics can combine math and science to really make an impact in the field of health and medicine.

Dr. Leah OH: 2:50

Yeah, that is so neat. I love so much of what you said, Julie, and I think that, you know, recognizing you've always had this passion and this interest in medicine and biology. And you explored that. And then also recognizing that in conversations, you're really drawn to the statistics of that. And I love you know, I always feel like people find their careers by leaning into what fits them best. And, and so that's really neat. And I love that, especially as a communication professor, I have so many students who are like, I became a Comm major, because I don't have to do math. And I'm like, I'm so sorry to disappoint you, we're still going to do math, right? Like, it's not going to be the same as other majors. But when you do have a good grasp on statistics, I mean, you know, the, your data fluency, and your ability to understand your world and to navigate it increase so much.

Julie Sturza: 3:50

Right. And looking back at that point, during my fellowship, I kind of looked back at my public health grad school experience and realized, oh, yeah, the classes that I really excelled at were biostatistics classes. And I just never really thought I guess I didn't really see what the career options were for that other than getting a PhD and teaching at a university or something like that. And so I feel like it was really fortuitous that I got to work with these awesome environmental economists who showed me a different way to use data in a different field.

Dr. Leah OH: 4:32

Yeah, yeah. That is really exciting. So then pursuing, you know, it's just the statistical field. What are some of the unique challenges you think that you've encountered that may be those I think in the majority men, maybe that they haven't experienced?

Julie Sturza: 4:52

Right? I think a lot of women relate to feeling impostor syndrome. And that was definitely something that I do I struggled with and still struggle with today at times, I also, I have kind of a naturally chatty smiley personality. And I felt at times that I had kind of had to tone down who I was and what my personality was in order for people to take me seriously. And luckily, I think I've mostly grown out of that as I've gotten older, because I know that this is just my personality. And it doesn't mean that I'm not good at statistics. And then the other thing that I think is a challenge. So I have three kids that are 10, eight, and five. And so there was a lot of maternity leaves in a short period of time. And I think now my kids are, like I said, they're a little bit older. And so policies have really improved, I think in terms of maternity leaves, but at the time that I was taking time off to have my babies I, I just felt like an inconvenience sometimes and whether or not people were trying to make you feel that way, there was a sense that you being awful, was inconveniencing people.

Dr. Leah OH: 6:12

No, I hear ya, Mama. It's so tough. I was I was just having a conversation with you know, in academia. As forward thinking as we are, there's still so many challenges. Because if you have a baby in a semester, when you're teaching, what do you do about afterwards or in the continuity of delivery? So actually, that's why I have to make babies because I was able to help them, luckily, after the traditional semester, and so I just remembering people being like, Have you been thinking about this? What is this going to look like? Like, have you like you can't put in an order? Like, are we all familiar with how this process works? So I fully fully understand that. And, you know, back to your point about imposter syndrome, that is my number one downloaded episode, over the past four seasons, anything because it's something that even once we're in sometimes it still flares up, be like, Hey, I've been doing this for a while, but once oil just comes knocking on your door, and I think, particularly when we look a little different than everyone around us, are most of us most of those around us at the peer level or above us, it can be especially frequent and you know, saying, Are you sure? Does this make sense? Like I'm doing? So okay. But I hear you,

Julie Sturza: 7:43

I think helps to with impostor syndrome is just having the maturity and the experience to know that it's okay to say, I don't really know the answer to that right now, or that's such a great question that you asked me. And I want to take a little bit of time, and research that before I give you an answer. And I think that's okay to do so. And I think people respect that, as opposed to you just trying to make something up on the fly, or, you know, just kind of white knuckle your way through an explanation that you don't feel confident. Yeah,

Dr. Leah OH: 8:17

exactly. That was one of my, it's one of those moments that you're always going to remember, I had a professor, my PhD. And we were just being pains, like looking back and like I would not have wanted to leave that class. But we were just peppering him with questions. And then what somehow someone directly said, what if you don't know? And he's like, I'll get back to you. And that just like, this is an expert. And this person is internationally renowned for what he does. And that was like, wow, I never thought of that as an actual response, a valid response. And now I defer to that. It's your right, what are we going to do in in lieu of that option?

Julie Sturza: 9:03

Right. Right. It's powerful to to feel confident in saying, I can get back to you.

Dr. Leah OH: 9:10

Yeah. And this is a nice segue, because I think that when we are leaning into our expertise and saying Great question, I'm going to circle back. You're definitely demonstrating leadership. And so with that in mind, you've already touched on some of these things. But Julie, what are some ways that you've used your leadership skills to kind of navigate and be successful in your in your career? Yeah,

Julie Sturza: 9:36

I think time management and energy management are really crucial to my field of work and probably to a lot of others. And what I mean by energy management is if I am, you know, banging my head on the wall trying to push through something and I am frustrated, and it's taken me way too long. Way too much. Way. Oh, a lot longer than I thought it should take to, to understand that there's value in stopping and taking a step back and realizing that you can come back to it later, once you've gotten your energy back up by doing something that allows you to feel more productive. And then I think communication, obviously, is is a huge leadership skill that I think has helped me a lot, I think in, in the field of statistics. There's a lot of people who can do statistics, and who can code and who can have the knowledge base to do statistics and biostatistics for people. But I think being able to communicate those results, is a really crucial skill that I think has allowed me to, to do well in my job, and also understanding. So I work a lot with primarily visit MD and PhD, physicians and people in the medical field. And I think that they're used to being experts and having all the answers. And a lot of them feel a lot. But some of them feel a little sheepish about the fact that they don't remember the stats, the one stats class that they had in medical school. And so understanding that not only do you need to communicate things in a way, that's understandable, but it's also sensitive to the fact that these this is a group of people who is not used to feeling like they don't have the answers.

Dr. Leah OH: 11:39

Yeah, Gosh, what a thoughtful answer, Julie, thank you, I love they want to, he's helped that idea, the value in stopping, because you're right, there's so many times like, you did not need to go down that rabbit hole would have been way better for like time management and you know, mental health, if I had just said, No, we can move this to tomorrow, or, you know, shuffling things even a little. So thank you for bringing that up. And I want to point out the strength in your communication, because you're talking about what I'm hearing is communication with relationships. And certainly, working with experts can be really tricky. It can be a huge blessing, because you're learning from people who are innovators in their field. But then you're right, and trying to say is, you know, let's rethink this, or have you considered this, take some tact. So you're you know, you're really excelling in your communication, with relationships. And then also with that content, that translational, right, and figuring out, yes, this is what this statistic says. But then let's explain why that's important. And what that means. And, in oftentimes, people tend to excel in one of these areas, they tend to be really good with relationships with them, their content or translational, it gets a little bit harder, or vice versa. And so I can definitely see your leadership, you know, part of why you have so much success that you've earned this because of your ability to communicate well across all of these boundaries.

Julie Sturza: 13:17

Right. And I think too, like I was saying, with working with these physicians who are experts in their field, I think, part of another thing that I found has been really successful for me is humbling myself, in terms of my lack of medical knowledge. So when they're initially meeting with me and explaining the project that they want me to collaborate on, just being open and humble and saying, I don't understand what you're talking about, or can you step back? Why are these kids having this surgery? Or why would you think that this would improve patient outcomes? Or what is it like for a patient in your clinic whose experiences experiencing this with you? And just, I think that kind of kind of allows them to really shine and to show their expertise? And then it's it's relationship building and in that way? Yeah.

Dr. Leah OH: 14:15

So you have disclosure, you're demonstrating that you care about them and what's important to them and it just I really applaud you I, I am biased toward communication, but I really, if people spent more time thinking about their communication and the impact of everything work gets easier, your romantic relationships, your relationships with your kids, your neighbors, so thank you for what you're doing and modeling. So Julie, this next one this can be a tricky as you know, it's a buzzword and thinking about work life balance. And so I am wondering if you know, kind of if you could talk to us a little bit about that work life balance As a woman in a male dominated field and also as a mother,

Julie Sturza: 15:04

right, so I think I actually have not found it to be as challenging as it could be in other fields, because I do statistics primarily for pediatricians, who, like kids and understand kids and frontal relationships. And also there just tends to be a lot of women in the field of Pediatrics. And so in that way, I feel understood. And just like people share my expectations about what's important. And then I'll also I also early on in my career, just found mentors or more senior people who had habits or work life balance skills that I kind of copied. One of my bosses early on, I noticed that she left every day at three o'clock, and I asked her about and she said, Well, yeah, my kids need to get picked up from school. And so I leave at three o'clock. And that means that I start work at seven o'clock. And that's what works for me and my family. And it was such a light bulb moment for me, because I was like, Oh, you don't have to work nine to five. And this is a very respected senior person. And she leaves work at three o'clock, and everybody just accepts that. That's what's important to her. And so that's something that I have, have tried to emulate and it's really worked well for our family is having flexible hours. And if there's a thing that I need to leave for, then I leave for it. And it's in. She also encouraged me to, don't just say, just say, I need to pick up my kids, I need to leave this meeting right at three o'clock. Don't try to hide what you're doing or say it's for an appointment or something. Just be honest, because that's the only way that things are going to prove for everybody is if we're just honest that kids need us families need us sometimes outside traditional or during traditional working hours. Yeah,

Dr. Leah OH: 17:13

yeah, exactly. And I love that, you know, the strength of the modeling, in recognizing that. This isn't something that necessarily we learn overnight. You know, we can go to different resources, we can have conversations, we can find books, but we can also look around us, like you said, and looking at people who we respect, who we admire who, you know, have earned a level of designation in the organization. Like, wow, okay, she's doing this. And I love that you asked about that, too, like, hey, what goes on at three o'clock? And I know before I had kids, I would never have thought of leaving at three. But yeah, I like you a hard stop at three. And we'll be sad little people waiting. But yeah, so thank you for bringing it up. And thank you, again for modeling that as well for for others. And I think as you said, the more that we can have conversations about it and normalize it, the easier it is for organizations, for their leaders to also make that more normative and make that part of the culture rather than an exception or a one off. Right. And so my next question in this as kind of a follow up, you've kind of addressed this and thinking about the previous question, but how do you approach abdicating either for yourself? Or if you've had others, other women in your organization or the field that you have advocated for? What does that look like?

Julie Sturza: 18:54

Yeah, so I think a lot of it is kind of paying it forward and explaining to them when I started this job, and when I started having kids, this was the understanding and the grace that was shown to me, by, you know, women who I reported to, and I'm going to show that same understanding and grace to you. And if you need to take your kid to the doctor, don't think twice about it and just being really upfront about saying these things so that someone who might report to me doesn't feel awkward or uncomfortable, asking for time off for something that's, that's family related. And then also, I've also when I've managed women in the past and men for that matter to kind of going to meetings with them and kind of sticking up for them and encouraging Showing them the way to say, you know, that's really not in her scope of work for this project, and kind of using my authority to kind of give them an out or to explain something that they might not feel comfortable doing themselves. And then, also, you and I have this in common for younger girls, we both coach Science Olympiad. And so that's something that I, that I love doing for my kids, showing them that women love science and women can be good at science. And that's been a really rewarding experience.

Dr. Leah OH: 20:42

Yeah, thank you. I'm just laughing at my Science Olympiad. My knowledge is growing at the same pace as my my daughter's and her friends. But you're right, just just showing up and being there, I think is a powerful lesson. And one thing you were mentioning in your response that I really liked was when we think about formal leadership, a lot of people again, either or they tend to really lean into that authority. So as your manager, nope, that's outside of the scope of the work, but you're also bringing in the influence. So some will, will try just through relationships and hoping that modeling is helpful. And and that certainly can, but the strongest titled leaders are the ones that blend that authority with their influence. And that's such a powerful thing for you to be modeling for others and helping them then, you know, it's one thing to watch you do it and then no, okay, she's helping me to figure out how to stand up for myself, or how to say no, in a polite way, which is a lot easier way for me personally, to learn it than being like, Hey, Leah, listen, this is what I'd like to see you do? Or you've been struggling with this? Can you do that? So I think we're also really mindful of people's learning styles, and their ability to say face in professional settings when you do it that way. So really neat, really neat to be hearing now. So with this next one, I'm thinking about, you know, this is a opinion based question. And I'm just wondering what you have seen, or what you would recommend in terms of attracting and retaining more women in in STEM fields?

Julie Sturza: 22:33

I think it's kind of would be the same answer for for both men and women, which is just creating more family friendly policies, greater work life balance, just trusting and empowering people to work in a way that allows them to get their work done, but also fits into their life and their lifestyle and their family demands. Whether that's working from home or working non traditional hours. And like I said, I think that's, I think, like I mentioned earlier, with expanded parental leave and stuff like that, I feel like it's, it's good in a way that some of the cultural work, cultural shifts are supportive of both men and women in this in the same way. But I think women especially can benefit from, from greater work life balance and flexible hours and things like that.

Dr. Leah OH: 23:34

Yeah, and that's one thing. You know, one of the benefits that came out of the pandemic, that we still see many organizations, I know that some of them fortunately, are leaning back into that antiquated, you need to be here. And these hours, you need to have your butt in the seat here where we can see you. But I still think overall, what I'm seeing as the trend is at least two hybrid approaches, and things like that can really make a big difference. And being able to show up to do my work to do it. Well, to also feel like I'm showing up at home is these responsibilities, you know, they just shift for us, depending on where we are and what time it is. They don't, you know, never we alleviated of, of these needs and requests of our time.

Julie Sturza: 24:25

Right. And I think a lot of that, too, is just understanding people's different personalities. And, for example, there's someone I work with, who reports to me who's pretty introverted, and also has a pretty long commute. And so for that person, it makes total sense to mostly work from home big because for you know, a very, and I'm not saying this person is specifically but for very introverted people being in an office setting can be really exhausting. and draining, and just kind of understanding even if that's not, I'm a very personally I'm a very extroverted person. So being in the office works well for me, but understanding that not everybody feels the same way.

Dr. Leah OH: 25:13

And that that's a gift too, because I think so often, we assume others are similar. If you remember some of my best advice, when I first became a brand new assistant professor, my chair reminded me you're not teaching, you know, 30, Leah's, you're, these are all different students, and they have all different motives and approaches. And, and that was really helpful. And recognizing that, okay, I can't hold those expectations for all of them that I would for myself. So right, and

Julie Sturza: 25:46

not to feel offended when someone's response is, is not what your response would be, because they're just a different person with a different Yeah,

Dr. Leah OH: 25:54

right, because I have some more so happy with the D. And I just like, I would still be fretting about A D, even at this point. So, you know, like you said, all different expectations. So another question in this is, when you are experienced, you're in a leadership role. So with this in mind, how have you seen the landscape for women in stem change over the course of your career?

Julie Sturza: 26:25

What I've seen is that, you know, when I was younger, there was a real push to get elementary school girls interested in STEM topics. And maybe the assumption was, that was enough. And I think that there's been maybe a greater push to support those young girls that we get into STEM fields throughout middle school, high school, college and beyond. And just the importance of creating women only spaces where there can be discussions about their field or, or the work life balance, etc. But yeah, so I think I think that it's become more holistic in terms of supporting women throughout the the career life lifecycle, not just when they're cute. Yeah.

Dr. Leah OH: 27:19

And yes, yes, yeah, I even had some colleagues in communication, who would look at media, children's media, and for a long time, there were no female characters associated with anything really related to stem. So they're saying, because they had a colleague who had a baby girl, that was her first. And she's like, we're showing her the shows, and there's no one that looks like her that can do math, or that is an engineer or doing anything in technology. So I think we've started to look at it, as you said, and there was a big focus set by fifth grade, if you're not in this, then you're done. Right? It was just kind of this. I kind of felt like a, this insurmountable thing, obstacle that if you weren't engaged in STEM by then, as a young girl, it was never going to happen for you. And as you're pointing out, I think you're right, there are more opportunities and conversations now. And I know a lot of research that's being done to figure out how do we keep? How do we keep this momentum going? Right. So my next question, Julie, and this is one you've, you've already hit on quite a bit. But I'm wondering if we have maybe someone who is just graduating or someone who's just switched over into a STEM based field? Can you kind of speak to either finding a mentor or thinking about how to build a supportive network?

Julie Sturza: 28:55

So mentorships been really important for me, and I have kind of different types of mentors. So I have thinking of two specific mentors who I consider technical mentors who are people that I can ask very specific statistics questions, too, I can send them code that I've written and ask them to, to read it and see if it is doing what I think it's doing or if I need to make any tweaks to it. And those mentors are really important in terms of having confidence in my technical skills in those situations where I'm kind of stretching to something that I haven't done before or is new to me. And then I kind of have I don't know what I would call them. Maybe like lifestyle type mentors who are maybe people who are doing the exact same job as me but people who I look to emulate their work life balance or their leadership skills or how they, how they act in meetings, how they come across in emails, those types of things. And I think it's been good for me to have have both types of mentors and understand that different people can serve as a mentor to you in different ways. And no one person, no one mentor is going to have everything. So it's in your best interest to kind of try to find a combination of mentors. Go.

Dr. Leah OH: 30:31

And it's funny, I don't know if you know this literature, but that's exactly how we think about mentoring is the career focused, like that technical side, and then the social emotional side? Because sometimes if careers going really well, there might be things at home that it's like, gosh, we've got a new schedule at school, and I'm really having a challenge, I'm not able to get in my cadence. And like you said there other times, it's like, this is a new project, am I? Huh? Okay, I need I need a quick check in. And so, you know, so I think that's really, really important that you're thinking about that, from all of these different vantage points, where we might need someone to come in and kind of shore up our confidence or shore up our technical ability to say like, Yep, you're on the right track. Yeah,

Julie Sturza: 31:21

and just what you were saying, Now reminding me to have I guess, I would call like another class of mentors, maybe a peer mentor, who is someone that you can sit down and talk to for 10 minutes and say, I'm in this situation, where someone's asking this of me, and I know you do similar things in similar type of situations, how do you handle it when X, Y, and Z happens? And you're not sure how to respond? And those? I don't even know. I mean, it feels weird to call it a peer mentor. I don't know what you would what you would call it, but just someone who, who does have a really similar position as you and who can relate to you on specific things related to your job?

Dr. Leah OH: 32:05

Yeah, I think like that social support, right? And I think you're right, you can ask them, What would you do here? Or can I pick your brain? And they're really good. Also, for just a quick rant today, like, yeah, I love the five minutes to complain about this. And you don't need to give them a backstory because they know they understand it. And a lot of times, that's all you need to then to be able to go forward in a productive way.

Julie Sturza: 32:31

Yes, totally. I had a recent example where someone that I was collaborating with on a project said something that as a, you know, statistical collaborator, I found very offensive, but I was finding myself explaining it to my husband or to a friend, and they were like, I don't get why that was so upsetting to you. And then finally, like a co worker, and I caught up last week, and I said it and he was like, I can't believe that.

Dr. Leah OH: 33:02

Yeah. Oh, wait, surely Thank you.

Julie Sturza: 33:06

Found out the outrage that I needed.

Dr. Leah OH: 33:08

Yeah, exactly. So Julie, I have two final questions for you. And these go hand in hand. So I end every episode of the communicative leader. With these pragmatic leadership or communication, it can be a tip, it can be advice, it can be a challenge. So the first part of the question, you know, what advice do you want to leave our titled leaders with?

Julie Sturza: 33:35

would say connections are so important, I think we touched on this already, but showing the people that you work with that you care about them more, or you view them as more than just a person who can give you the thing that you're asking for you view them as a whole person who has a personality and who has a life outside of work. And I know personally, that the people that have shown me those type of connections that were leaders above me, I find myself just naturally wanting to go above and beyond for those people, because I so appreciate that they took the time to ask me questions about my family or my life or vacations that I went on and just show me that I wasn't just a person who was there to do statistics and hand them over to them. So that would that would be something that that I think is really important is just building connections.

Dr. Leah OH: 34:34

Yeah. And I think too, if we, you know, we spend so much time at work, whether it is hybrid or virtual or in the office and taking the time to model that especially our titled leaders, like you're saying, then that becomes more of a norm and an expectation for others, rather than just one kind person who is thoughtful and they think too, you know, considering the amount of time I'm an energy we give to our organizations, to our peers, to our stakeholders than you know, that's an organization I want to be a part of. That's an organization that feels better for me. And I imagine a lot of others feel like yep. Yeah, and so last question. So we've just thought about advice for titled leaders. Now, what do you want to leave? Or employees all ranks across all industries? What advice do you have for them?

Julie Sturza: 35:30

Yeah, so this, this is something that's like very practical, practical and specific, which is to always ask for deadlines, and then clarify the nature of the deadline. By that, I mean, is it like a drop dead must be done at this time? Is there some flexibility? Because so often, and I'm guilty of it, too, you shoot someone an email and say, Hey, can you do this for me? And there's this big unknown of, can you do this for me write the second write this week, in six months. And so I think, before sending an email, where you're asking someone to do something, just put a timeline in and then say, this can be flexible, you know, as long as it's anytime within two weeks of this deadline, or say, I really need this. And this, you know, because there's a deadline I'm then trying to meet. And then if you're on the receiving end of a request, I always push, like, immediately respond and say, Sure, I can do this for you. What is your timeline, because I've found that sometimes you're really like busting your butt trying to meet some deadline that is not actually really that important. And it just makes everything more stressful than it than it really needs to be. Yeah,

Dr. Leah OH: 36:54

that is such a helpful piece of advice. And it's the first time I've heard that, right, which I really love. And it's so important. And that doesn't matter if you're in a project based role, a customer service, you know, whatever it is the you know, the knowledge or product that you're bringing to the table, someone is going to be asking you for information or some type of output. So thinking ahead of time, sure. I was smiling when you're saying that like, yeah, there definitely been times that either Yeah, I have like, acted like a maniac trying to get something done and realizing like, oh, this deadline, six weeks out, why am I why am I doing this? Like why have I read this? Because I didn't stop to ask for clarification. And I know, especially on the receiving end, I'm sure there have been students who've been like, Dr. Rowe, you've just gave me, you know, a mild heart attack. You didn't need this until then. And so thinking about that both as sending and receiving, so that's really a thoughtful, thoughtful point to leave us with.

Julie Sturza: 38:01

No, because even when you know, when you're sending a request to someone, whether or not you are fully conscious of it, you have an expectation of when you want it done. And so you'll sit there stressing over the fact that this person hasn't returned your email or hasn't given you what you need, and then you realize, well, that's because they have no idea that I needed it when I need it.

Dr. Leah OH: 38:24

Yep. And I love that. And I think it's those those specific actions that really add up to make work life so much more manageable, right. And that's what we're all looking for just just a little bit of cushion, just a little bit of padding. So, Juliette, thank you for joining us today. I have truly enjoyed our conversation. I've learned a lot from you. And I know our listeners well as well.

Julie Sturza: 38:49

Thank you so much for having me. This was really fun.

Dr. Leah OH: 38:53

All right, my friends. That wraps up our conversation today. Until next time, you indicate with intention and lead with purpose. I'm looking forward to chatting with you again. Soon. I'm the communicative leader.