Women In STEM, Breaking Barriers and Reshaping Norms: A Conversation with Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske is as Associate Professor and the Chairperson of the Department of Chemistry at Western Michigan University.

Megan talks to use about changing norms in her STEM-field, the power of role modeling positive changes, and what she's experienced in terms of gender bias (and how she responded). 

Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose.

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Transcript

Dr. Leah OH: 0:00

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske is an associate professor and the chairperson of the Department of Chemistry at Western Michigan University. In today's episode, Megan talks to us about how to help change norms over time. The importance of role modeling and navigating life is a titled leader in a male dominated profession. Hello, and welcome to the communicative leader hosted by me, Dr. Leah Omilion-Hodges. My friends call me Dr. OH. I'm a Professor of Communication and a leadership communication expert, and the communicative leader. We're working to make your work life what you want it to be. Megan, thank you so much for joining us on the communicative leader. This is really fun to have you on as a friend, a colleague, and you know, we've kind of been walking step by step and this academic journey for a while. So again, thanks for sharing your time and your expertise. And before we really dive in, can you give us a little background about yourself and what inspired you to pursue a career in STEM field?

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske: 1:15

Yeah, um, well, I mean, how much time do we have? As far as the story but no, I'm really excited to be here because I've actually never been on a podcast before. So I feel like a celebrity almost.

Dr. Leah OH: 1:28

And you are like and listeners, you are so lucky to have Megan here with her experience, I'm telling you.

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske: 1:36

So like, where did my journey start? You know, I'm even in middle school in high school. I always liked science, I was actually reflecting. I don't even know why this morning. That my senior year in high school, I had a research paper due for my English class, and I wrote it about like telomeres, and hearing is either cancer or like spinal injury, like nerve regeneration, like it was something that is unlike most topics that seniors in high school would pick, I think, and I was just kind of reflecting on like, Oh, that's really interesting. I wonder what my teacher thought of that. Very scientific paper. But even you know, in high school to my physics teacher, kept suggesting or recommending me for like Doctors Without Borders, like all these, you know, different programs. So I had a lot of people really encouraging an interest in science. And so when I went to undergrad, I was very health field oriented. I had originally thought about doing physical therapy school, and kind of got steered into the medical school track. And so upon graduation with my bachelor's degree, I actually went to medical school for a semester. And quickly realized, no, this.

Unknown: 3:05

Yeah,

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske: 3:06

I tell all my, like, freshman camp students, when I'm teaching, I tell them this story, because so many of them are like, I need to know what I'm doing right now and have it figured out and they're under so much stress that they haven't, like, live in their life and has like it's okay. Okay. Um, yeah, so I went to med school for a semester and realized while I was there just wasn't for me, like, for lots of reasons. It wasn't for me. And got to the point where I actually failed two classes, which if you fail two classes, you have to like restart med school the next year. So there isn't any, like catching up if you only fail one over the summer, but you fail to and it's start over. And so it was a point where I had to consider for myself. Do I want this enough? To do this again? Yeah, you pay $20,000 to go to school. And that's just like, No, absolutely not. Being you okay? What do I do now? I don't know, super high achiever. And I just like foamed up. Cool. So it's just kind of a identity crisis. And yeah, it was just reflecting on like, what do I actually want to do? And I started looking at different opportunities and programs and was really drawn towards teaching and happened to stumble upon chemical education as a track that I could do a PhD in and end up teaching at the college level. And it just, it felt like it clicked for me. And so that's, that's how I ended up going to grad school. And when I went to grad school, I was just going to teach at a, you know, primarily undergraduate University, and ended up really loving research and wanting to keep that as part of my career. So when I was applying for jobs, I ended up, you know, looking at places that had a balance of research and teaching, because both of them were really important to me. Mm hmm.

Dr. Leah OH: 5:13

Yeah. And I love that. And I love that, you know, you started, you still became a doctor, just not an MD different times. Yeah. Yeah, a different kind. And you're able to still really lean into, you know, even in those, like that moment of the identity crisis, it was this love of science. That was like, Okay, how do we still, you know, connect with this in a meaningful way? And, you know, start a livelihood with?

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske: 5:39

Yeah, yeah. Very

Dr. Leah OH: 5:41

cool. And so, Megan, what are some of you know, so? So folks, I think maybe do will you tell us a little bit about your research and what you're doing now, so that we have the context for, I think, what will come next?

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske: 5:56

Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, so chemical education, I think, you know, I say chemistry, when I say have a PhD in chemistry, there's a lot of like, terror, of like, Oh, my God, I hated chemistry. And I always kind of softened it, like, Oh, but I do chemical education research, I'm trying to explore ways to make chemistry not so terrifying. But really specifically, I have, you know, since I went to grad school, a real interest in understanding women in chemistry, and then it is expanded into other individuals from like, historically excluded and marginalized groups. And so that has really gotten me into the weeds of kind of picking apart, like, systemic bias and institutional structure, how higher ed has, you know, function for a very long time, how scientists function for a long time to, you know, privilege, people who are coming from certain backgrounds and really put other folks at a disadvantage. And so that's been my research focus. And it's been really fulfilling. So, you know, I sometimes kind of estrous that I have, you know, a STEM career because I'm not in a lab, like I'm not doing what chemistry research. Be. I'm, even now people in my department talk about different instrumentation. And I'm like, Yes, I vaguely know what that does. But I'm going to have to trust you on the specifics of what's, what's going wrong with this equipment that we have. And so it's all like social science research research that's situated in STEM fields. And so I bring a bit of insight or knowledge, because I've been trained, you know, I did a PhD in a chemistry department and but I also have this perspective of someone who understands social research and how that looks really different from scientific research.

Dr. Leah OH: 8:05

Yeah, you just bring this really unique and essential perspective, to this intersection of like using social sciences and hard sciences and inclusion. When we think of inclusion, of course, we have to think about exclusion and gatekeeping, and how things are changing. So, again, I like so listeners, I mean, Megan really is the perfect person to share her expertise with us and in this area. And so they kind of tease us up for this next question. So what are some of these unique challenges that you faced in this male dominated field?

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske: 8:45

Yeah, that's a really a really good question. Because I think it always kind of blows my mind when I talk to women who are in the field, or students and are like, oh, there isn't, there isn't an issue with women, like, look at how many women are around here. There's more women in this class than men. And, you know, I've talked with my students lot about, we get so enculturated with what it's like that we don't see it anymore. It's just part of how we exist. And you know, science in graduate school, really works to kind of infiltrate people and assimilate people. And so they have this, you know, disciplinary set of norms, and people are just expected to mold themselves to fit those. And that's where, you know, some of my research really started drawing out how women especially had values that were not aligned with, like higher education research, and this sense of disconnect because I feel like I shouldn't be here. And so when I came into my role Uh, you know, he's coming straight off of a doctoral degree looking at this disconnect. And I'm like, I need to embody all the things that women are looking for, in, you know, a role model in science. And that's really exhausting. Because, you know, some of it wasn't really me. I mean, some of it was,

Unknown: 10:22

you know, so I've,

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske: 10:24

in my career, I've had three children while I have been a professor. And so I've gotten plenty of comments about, you know, my vacation. maternity leave is navigation, anyone who's had a child? You know, they a lot of it is subtle, right. And I think that's the hardest part is that if you're not looking for it, it's easy to overlook it. You know, it needs to get called out so that people were making these comments notice. But even one of the stories I've told people about one of my chairs, when I was relatively new, he would always refer to me as young lady in department, pull. And everyone hours was Dr. SO and SO. Right. And so I was already quite young. I mean, I was the youngest person in the department. I'm one of just a few women in the department. And like, he was like, just calling it out every single time. Did you draw more attention to the fact that I'm young, and I'm a woman? Thank you. Yeah. You know, there's that. And then, you know, I've, I've had a really challenging 10 year experience. And I'm actually going through promotion this year, and it's kind of rearing its head again. And it's, again, no one is writing or giving me feedback that's like, oh, we think you're not good enough, because you're a woman. Right? It's not overt sexism, it is subtle. It is the research topics I have chosen are not rigorous enough, the journals I publish in aren't high enough, you know, ranked or the tier isn't good enough. Even publishing in journals, when you send it to some of these high tier journals, they're like, this isn't a good fit, which is a valid statement. And so I'm going to journals that are good fit, and then getting called out on it by my, one of my departments. And, you know, just, again, I think if you aren't looking for it, it's easy to say like, Well, those are valid comments. The Journals aren't that great. Or they're not as good as they could be, and to internalize that rather than turning around and questioning the system, right? Well, maybe these journals aren't as widely read, because it's a small group of people that are doing research like this. You know that it's a topic that isn't valued by the discipline at large, partially because it challenges a lot of these exactly that we really held on to for a long time.

Dr. Leah OH: 13:15

Yeah. And the structures that I imagine those who are leading, many of these top tier journals have been privileged by and rewarded with them. And so of course, I mean, so you're, you're exactly right. Some of this is very clear, being called young lady in a faculty meeting. I remember being when I first started one call you to always call me lovely. And I just like this is, you know, and I could tell it was meant in as a kindness. And I another colleague, and thinking I was a student, and being like, you shouldn't be in this office. And like, No, literally, that's my name on the door. Right? So some of the things you're like, this is this is clearly not okay. Can anyone else see this? Because there are times you feel really isolated. But you're right. It's all of those ones that are subtle, where again, how was how was that vacation? Did you enjoy your time away? I just produced a little human, and I'm not sleeping, and my mind isn't what I want it to be and all of these things. And there's no way this is should be packaged in what's the word vacation in any sense. So yeah, yeah. So you're right. And I'm really glad that you pulled out the fact that for a lot of people, and I think too for a lot of young females, I'm noticing saying like, it's fine, like how many women and it's like, yes, there is a change, but we can't stop. This is not, you know, the one the one criterion that we're using to say, yep, we did it. We have made this a more equal space. Yeah. So when those experiences have Yeah, go ahead. I was gonna

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske: 14:59

say there's one other For instance, when you're talking about being, you know, kind of young and new, especially in academics, right, your pre tenure and powerless, you're trying to like, not make anybody out. And maybe I missed that memo. But we had a, an email that came out from my director at the time asking just the women in the department to serve on a committee about gender equity. And, I mean, I was maybe my second or third year, and I wrote back, and I called him out on like, equity isn't just a women's issue should be including everyone, you're adding additional service for the women in the department who already have this, you know, higher service load, you know, having men at the table makes it more legitimate. He was not happy that I, I called him out on it. And I think that's one of the challenges too, is like, it's risky, especially if you're young, to draw attention to that. And so a lot of people just let it go. Rightfully so. Right. Like it's not, it's not always worth it to put yourself in that vulnerable position. And then it just perpetuates. Exactly. You're

Dr. Leah OH: 16:18

right, especially as a junior colleague, you don't have the armor of tenure. And so but then it's so problematic, because when we have tenure, in six years, we have implicitly been okay, with these messages and these committees to get to the space and then it feels really hard for everyone. They're like, Well, you didn't say anything, like couldn't say anything? Honestly, I guess, oh, gosh, taco, you know, Rock in a Hard space. Right. And so, for this next question, you kind of already addressed this, in that in that store, you just shared about writing back to the chair about a female only Gender Equity Committee, I can't even get through saying that without laughing those words together. I feels like I'm setting up a really bad jokes, honestly, say that. But I'm wondering how you've used your leadership skills in this can either be like, as a title leader now or before, as you're saying, and just saying, Hey, I'm gonna speak up. But what are some of the ways or what would you recommend in terms of using leadership skills to navigate and be successful in a STEM field?

Unknown: 17:35

Yeah, so

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske: 17:36

leadership skills, um, you know, I would often not say, like, Oh, that's a leadership skill. That's just doing what you should do. I remember being startled when there was like a faculty meeting, and one of the faculty like, swore at the other faculty member, and everyone just sat around, and like, nobody noticed. And I was like, hey, that's really inappropriate. And again, I was the only one and so to me, like, that's not necessarily leadership.

Dr. Leah OH: 18:15

That is fully leadership. Yeah, you know,

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske: 18:19

leading by example, or being willing to call it out. You know, and as a title, leader, now as the Chair, I think a lot about culture of the department more than leadership, necessarily. You know, having this culture of like, we care about each other, we support each other, and we don't all need to be best friends. But rather than adversarial, it felt adversarial when I first started. And it was really important to me that we didn't have that continue. We had more of a supportive, collaborative, collegial, and I feel feels like, base here. Right? Yeah. I

Dr. Leah OH: 19:03

feel like that should be a bare minimum. But a lot of people should have to work to get there, which is sad, but essential, right? Yeah.

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske: 19:12

Yeah. And so you know, things like that. I do silly things, like when we start department meetings, just asking, like, a question, almost like an icebreaker question. So last fall, you know, what's your favorite holiday tradition? And I think it was November so I was like, it really can be any sort of November, December, January holiday. You know, and people, they share stuff and you get to know each other a little bit better. And I don't think that I would say like, oh, that's leadership. But it is kind of embedding that culture of getting to know each other even though we've worked together for a long time. You know, sharing experiences sharing stories in a really low stakes way. Yeah. To like that kind of thing, I don't know if it's leadership, but I, it's important to me to do as a leader. You know, and having those personal relationships so that people feel that they can come and talk to me. Because that's something I think that's really toxic is if your leader isn't approachable, then there's the back channel, right? There's, nobody's gonna actually tell me there's a problem, they're all going to talk about it gossip about it themselves, and I'm going to be left in the dark. And so you know, having those check ins having those relationships is important. And then, in terms of culture to one of the things that I did, as a, you know, I don't know what year I was second year chair, was to go on maternity leave, which was not the plan at all. I had actually said, when I was taking on the chair role, like, well, this means we're done at two kids, because I just don't know how I would do this. And my partner, my husband said to me, would you allow anybody in your department to tell you that, like, I can't, if I do this, and I can't have a child? And I was like, No, obviously. And he's like, okay, that's your answer. You know, and so being able to, like, say, Yep, this is happening. I'm glad I'm attorney Lea, this is the land. Everything is going to be okay. Yeah. You know, that set the stage, I think for one of our junior faculty, he actually wanted to take paternity leave last semester. And I was like, absolutely, yeah, let's make it happen. Because to me, like, that's actually a really critical part of changing a lot of the culture and the values is that men need to be requesting time off when they have a child, they need to be comfortable, like owning that space, so that it's not just for women thing, right? It's not, oh, I'm going to start my tenure clock, you know, to have a baby. And then you have people saying like, Oh, well, you got an extra year. No, no, no, no. And so that normalization, that like everybody is going to do this. And it's not just for women. That makes it better for everybody.

Dr. Leah OH: 22:29

Exactly. Right. It is a family thing, it is not just a woman thing. And I love that you, you know, you demonstrate through the power of role modeling, as you're saying, like, Okay, this isn't necessarily what I thought or plan, know what we're gonna do it, and we're going to show that we can figure this out. And I think that goes a long way. As you you know, you're indicating it goes a long way. And changing that culture exists. If our titled leader is doing this, and showing that this is the right thing to do that this is an option. And it becomes so much easier for other people to follow. You're

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske: 23:08

literally your lead. Yeah. Yeah, very cool. And

Dr. Leah OH: 23:14

so you've kind of touched on this, my next question is thinking about how to advocate for ourselves or other women in STEM, and you've talked about this, and I love that you've also kind of brought in, it's not only a woman thing, that some of this changing these norms can be men, you know, making decisions that weren't traditional or other, you know, historically, coach, others in terms of how to best advocate for yourself.

Unknown: 23:43

Whole? Um,

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske: 23:46

that is a really hard question for me, because I don't always feel like I advocate for myself. Well. You know, I think I'm like a lot of women who say yes to everything. Great. Like I hear, yes, that that's important. I will help out. And as a leader, delegating has been hard, but necessary. And that's kind of my way of advocating sometimes for myself and my time to say, like, you know, what, I need somebody else to do this. I don't have the space, I don't have the time. It's just not going to happen. And some of it is, I think, probably more of boundary setting than advocating, I really, really tried to not be on email, evenings and weekends. I mean, whatever I check it, but I don't respond. You know, I take time off, and I encourage other people to take time off. Like if we're coming up to a regularly scheduled break like winter break or spring break. You know, I make a point of saying like, I want you all to take some time off Um, scientists are notorious for like, oh, there's a break. Now I can be in the lab, you know, every, every minute of the day just, you know, and advocating for them, but also their grad students, right? This is not a time for your grad students to be in the lab 80 hours a week, either they. They get. Yep. You know, and so like, stuff like that. It doesn't necessarily feel like advocacy, but it does. It does feel like stuff that doesn't get spoken about that should get spoken about. It shouldn't be unusual to be like, take a break. Please, right. Yeah,

Dr. Leah OH: 25:41

exactly. And actually, you are, you're the one who helped me with better boundaries, because I remember I was actually at your house and on my phone trying to respond to student emails. And you're like, you didn't say, hey, maybe you don't want to do that. You just said, Oh, it's after five. I don't respond then. And I mean, it was like she like had blown, you know, we were new assistants. And he was like, wow, like, it was so freeing for me to hear someone I felt like I needed the permission. It was like she's right. And then it was really helpful, too, because I worked in industry before. And I'm like, no one would expect me to respond. And if I kept doing it, they'd be like, what's what's going on? Like? Do you need some extra resources? Like, how can we help you it would be a warning sign. But in academic, it was just like, of course, I'm going to respond. And now I don't and actually times when I'm thinking about it, I'm like, no, no, Megan, like I really truly think of you. And it really helped to, to give me more work life balance. So thank you.

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske: 26:49

Oh, you're welcome. I mean, I get emails from colleagues at three in the morning. And my first thought is like, why are you emailing at three in the morning? And it's not urgent, like it's not time sensitive? And I want to just reply back and be like, go

Dr. Leah OH: 27:05

to sleep? Yes. Yeah, exactly. Well, yeah. That's any like we do important work, but not not this important. I don't need to solve the world's problems at this moment. So when I skipped over this question on accident, and it was such a nice connection to thinking about leadership skills, but it does tie in to what we were just thinking about boundaries. So no work life balance, hot topic, very tricky one, and I think one that is, feels especially challenging as a woman and a mother. And I know demands in a STEM field can be different than other fields. So I'm wondering, either tips you've had or what your experience has been, in this regard.

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske: 27:54

Yeah, and so you know, I'll address the like differences in STEM fully owning that, that is not something that I deal with on a daily basis. But, you know, it is a real thing that sometimes you have to be in the lab for 12 hours, while you're running an experiment, you know, there are times that, you know, you can't leave at five o'clock. And that's a real thing. And I get that, I usually ask that people, you know, try and balance it out another time, right. If you're stuck in the lab until 9am, or 9pm, hopefully not, like 9pm, maybe leave early the next day or something. For me, personally, I have talked about this with my partner who's also in a leadership position, but he he says he does a good job of being able to pay attention to both at the same time, like work and kids and home, like, I like a really clear division of church and state, if you will, like, you know, if I'm with the kids, I don't want to be checking email, I don't want to know what's going on at work. Because it just raises like my stress level. And then, you know, they're asking for attention. And I'm like, No, I'm just trying to finish this one thing. And I'm just like, I'm not a good person. I'm not good parents. And so I tried to get my work out to the kids and home at home and keep it separated. And that goes along with the like no nights and weekends for no work unless I'm under some sort of deadline or time crunch, but like that kind of demarcation between where I'm at and what I'm doing. helps a lot. I will say that my administrative assistant in my department, the first vacation I went on, when she was working with me. She was like, You're the first chair. I know that didn't take their laptop with them. I was like, No, I'm on vacation. Like I'm actually young a time off. I yeah, I have my phone Oh, on purpose, but like, yeah, you know, and like, that's the culture, right? That's the culture is like, I can't possibly be away from my work. I'm so important that I need to be available at all times. I'm actually not. There's really very little I do that someone else can't do. Or then can't wait the week until I'm back. Yeah.

Dr. Leah OH: 30:26

Yeah, that is in it. Again, back to your modeling this, this behavior that's so healthy. And so important. And that goes such a long way, especially now is this titled leader? Sure. It's one thing if you're going for a work conference, and the family's coming to, which can be really challenging in itself, but when you're taking a true vacation, of course, like, vacation for me is not responding to student emails. Working on my revision for a paper that that's work. It's not I'm taking time away. I would like to take away time from that as well.

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske: 31:04

Yeah, yeah. And I do think, on this topic of like boundaries, and advocating one of my big challenges, like within the workspace, is prioritizing time for my own work. It's really easy for me to get sucked into doing chair stuff. Reviewing student work, or giving students feedback, you know, working on research papers with graduate students, like all of that is easy for me to prioritize, it's much harder for me to make that space and that time for like my own research projects. I'm definitely one of those, like, in service of others is my my thing. If I'm going to help you, I will absolutely drop everything and do it if it's for myself. Maybe maybe in three weeks. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Leah OH: 31:52

Yeah. It'll get done when it gets done. Yeah, exactly. I know. It's, it's just, in my mind, it's always this game of Tetris that is constantly ongoing. And I don't know if there's ever a winner. A lot of times I feel like the loser or I'm behind and catching up. But it's always just figuring out how do we get this to work?

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske: 32:16

Yeah, I do a lot of triage, like, what is the next most important thing or the thing that's going to fall apart the soonest or the next deadline? And then that's probably not the best way to prioritize. So don't take that advice. But I mean, that's how my life functions.

Dr. Leah OH: 32:33

Yes, I fully understand. I think I was just talking to a friend the other day, and I think you'll appreciate this because we have young kids, but we're at an age and we have this expertise and this knowledge where people are asking more of us. And these two things don't align and the rights are really challenging. And I actually realized, I use the phrase, the wheels are coming off so often that I heard one of my kids say it like, Oh, no doubt, I think the wheels are coming off. And I was like, okay, it was so funny. But also it was one of those moments where like, I need to think about what I'm modeling. What am I saying here? And like having them live in a state of triage with me. I'm like, No, this is not what I want for you. But it's those times and you just say, Okay, I gotta take a step back. What, what do I learn here?

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske: 33:22

How do we adjust? How do we course? Correct? Right, exactly.

Dr. Leah OH: 33:28

So we've got to chat about this next question. And you've already given so many great tips, but I'm wondering, you know, advice for other women who are aspiring, particularly for titled leadership roles in STEM? So what, you know, what do you wish you knew, or, you know, knowing now, you know, at this experience, what would you offer others?

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske: 33:53

Yeah, you know, I think the, the biggest learning curve Well, there's two, one is just all of the stuff, the new systems and new procedures. I like it a lot too, when you went from, you know, being in grad school to being a professor. We're like, whoa, nobody, nobody taught me all of this. Yeah. Yes, there's like a whole learning curve about running the departmental budget and approving travel authorizations, and all these like university systems, doing payroll every other week. And those things like you can learn on the fly from other folks from your administrative assistant, etc. Like, that's learnable I think the thing that I have invested a lot in and I am very glad that I did was like, structured leadership training. I think most of my life I have kind of been like, oh, a natural leader, without really knowing why or how I'm getting put into some, you know, challenging situations. You're like, oh, I need some new strategies. And so I think one of the hardest things is getting people to do stuff they don't want to do. You know, especially if you are working with full professors who are like they're not striving for a promotion. I have virtually no carrots or sticks at my disposal. Yeah, I'm sort of relying on goodwill sometimes are like that they already think it's something that they should be doing. And so, you know, having training, having other chairs to talk to, is really helpful in kind of thinking creatively about what are some solutions, or approaches that I haven't thought about already. And I would say, you know, finding other chairs that you can connect with is really important. I find leadership roles can often be really isolating and lonely. And I struggle with that myself. Because, yeah, when I was faculty in the department, I was on, like, a level playing field with everybody. And we could talk about whatever we want to talk about. And now that I'm in a leadership role, there's some stuff I can talk to them about, and some stuff that I have specifically been said, so share this with your department yet, or where it's about another faculty member, and I can't talk to anybody about it. Because, yeah, sounds ethical. And so finding other chairs that, you know, you can talk to and ideas off of, or just commiserate has been helpful. And so yeah, you get someone who's looking at going into that leadership role, especially the higher up, you get, might have to outsource to other universities to getting some sort of network. And so I really strongly suggest checking out like, some of these more like regional or national leadership, conferences or training options, just because it helps you get connected outside of your own institution, which can be really helpful.

Dr. Leah OH: 37:14

Yeah, because that social support, I mean, it's always so important. But you're right, when you're in a position where there's stuff ethically you can't share, or maybe even legally, you can't share when you're feeling like an island, but you've got the weight of the department or the team on your shoulders. I mean, that is that is a challenging position to be in. Yeah, yeah. Thank you for pointing that out. So this next question, you know, so I'm wondering, the question is, you know, how do we attract and retain more women in STEM and thinking about your research and thinking about the science field, the hard science field that you're situated within? I think this question might also be bringing in underrepresented groups, other people who have maybe felt excluded for a variety of reasons. So maybe drawing from your research, so how do we attract and retrain other individuals into the STEM fields?

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske: 38:18

Yeah, I think, um, you know, my research pretty clearly points to a mismatch between the values that I won't even say just women and, you know, people from historically excluded groups, but even you know, some men are having like, this idea that I'm supposed to be devoted to science all the time, I should think about science all the time. You know, I think a lot of people are, you know, they're broader, and they're more interested in things outside of science and looking at that culture. Like, I don't want that. And there's also a very, especially if you're going into high research type of environment, this expectation that you are kind of solely devoted to science, you're getting grants, you're going after publications, you can come back to my story earlier, you care about where your papers are going, and you know what the prestige of them is. And that's a really stressful, difficult space to be in. And I think more and more generationally, we're also seeing people have a shift towards like, I don't want my job to be the only thing I care about and think about. And I think maybe like women were a little ahead and thinking about that, because of the cultural expectation that they're supposed to be a mom and take care of the home and, you know, support their partners career and, you know, all of these really, you know, outdated gender heteronormative expectations that we have, you know, we're starting to get a, you know, some pushback on And that and to say, I don't actually want that. That's not how I want to live my life. I think as we can start talking about those and challenging those within institutions, we're going to start hopefully moving that needle, I think there's still a really long way to go. But putting structures in place, and making things systemic can be really helpful in breaking down some of those barriers, rather than forcing each person to like, fight for themselves. And I'll give the example like, when I had my first child, I got like, one set of information from HR. And then it went back with the information they give me they're like, oh, no, you can't do that. My chair at the time, had no idea what was going on. You know, so like, I was getting this run around. That was actually at a time when, and you can relate to this. The University had no maternity leave policy on the book. Yeah, like, nothing at all. Remember that? It feels so great. You're like, what decade? Are we in? What century are 100%? Yeah, you know, and so we've been, we've made a lot of progress, since then, still got a ways to go. But there is a maternity leave policy. And, you know, now when I had a faculty member come in and say, like, this is what I want to do. Yes, absolutely, I can help you that, you know, even I've had two different faculty members this year need to take FMLA for personal reasons that are not related to having a child. And, you know, being able to be that advocate, being able to say, like, Yes, this is a valid reason to take a leave of absence, and I will help you navigate that, you know, setting that as something that's accessible, and supportive. It goes so far in showing, you know, other students, whether they're undergrads or grad students that like it is possible. You know, certainly the existence of people doing things that they aspire to, whether it's family, or, you know, hobbies or sports, plus their career, that certainly helps. But, you know, making it

Unknown: 42:28

accepted to have

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske: 42:31

things outside of work making it, you know, publicly known that I don't actually do email on nights and weekends. During COVID, I actually had an auto reply on my email, during one especially horrendous portion where we literally were just cycling through like, daycare closures and closures and trying to hunt down COVID tests. And, you know, I had multiple people tell me, like, how much they appreciated that I had this auto reply that was like, my life is a dumpster fire. Yeah. Yep. You know, just just throw it out there. Like, I'm not ignoring you. There's a lot of there's less stuff going on in the world. And my job is at the top of my list. I think, you know, having that shift happen, it's slow, but we're getting there. Yes, yeah. Yes,

Dr. Leah OH: 43:29

I think you're right, that those conversations that normalize it and, and I do remember our conversations, again, with our first who are very close in Ming, like, what did you learn? Well, this is what I heard. And then we had such different information. I remember being told, if you have a child during the academic year, you have to pay six grand to pay out adjuncts to take over the class. But then HR was like, No, that's not how it works. And then someone was like, well, it's up to your director, moving like, How is this possible? How are you? What is going on here?

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske: 44:08

Miracle anyone who's had children in this job, or more than Wow, because once they've done it once, they're like, I'm never doing that again. Right?

Dr. Leah OH: 44:16

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Was wild years. Yeah. So I like that idea of thinking of the scaffolding and figuring out how do we set this up, to allow others to be successful to navigate this in a, a shared and clear way?

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske: 44:32

When I over and over, I'm always talking about being explicit, whether we're doing grad student reviews, whether we're talking about you know, family, leave policies, workload, whatever it is, like being explicit and clear. You know, if our faculty want to put some grad student on, you know, continue with reservations. I'm sitting there, how many? What are the reservations? How do they address them, like Yeah, specific bullet points, they need to know how to meet that. You know, and like, I get looked at sometimes, like while you're being really picky, but that's the key, right? Otherwise this for grad student gets this letter and they're like, oh my gosh, what am I doing wrong? Yeah,

Dr. Leah OH: 45:17

yeah. Yeah. And you're like, isn't picky, or am I just being clear? Am I just being helpful here? Right? Like, because you're in and I think that goes back to the system where people for a long time before thinking of power, if a faculty member didn't like it, then like, it's just not working, or they're not doing they're not motivated, they're not doing enough little, let's make that clear. And then it's forcing people then to have to articulate what exactly do I mean? And then, you know, it's all like you said, incremental, gradual changes, right, and get us in the direction where we would like to go. Yeah,

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske: 45:56

yeah, if you're doing reviews, and you can't be clear, it gives you the opportunity to get away with stuff later. Right. But if it's like, whether it's tenure, or restaurant reviews, if it is clearly articulated, you gotta get held to that man. And those like, then it's okay. You know, and then going back very, very beginning, like, that's one of the challenges with I think tenure, at so many places is it's not clearly articulated. Even my review process this year, you know, I was explaining, again, my husband is not an academic, but explaining like, well, there's these five adjectives. And if you have this combination, gives, then you can get promoted. And he just looked at me like, What

Unknown: 46:45

is wrong? Like, let

Dr. Leah OH: 46:47

me show you the contract. He's like, Well, this

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske: 46:49

is what's wrong with me. Actually. I'm like, Well, yes, that is true. Yeah. What in the world

Dr. Leah OH: 46:54

is sad? Yeah, it feels like a bad game of bingo, right? Like, I need to get these ones in alignment, or this promotion won't happen, even though I've done all the things for over a decade. Yep. Yep, these are

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske: 47:08

unclear. If

Dr. Leah OH: 47:10

you are not in the in academics, we're literally not choking. Truly, this truly is. This truly is the process and the criteria used for assessment.

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske: 47:23

Yeah, any actual expert in assessment would probably die as lone people that are looking at how we evaluate and assess criteria for Yes,

Dr. Leah OH: 47:35

yes, yeah. Yeah. So I had a few other questions, but we have touched on mentoring and support and changes in the field. So let us skip to our two final questions. And this is something on every episode of the communicative leader. And like to leave listeners with these pragmatic leadership or communication tips, it can be advice, it can be a challenge. So first part of the question, what advice or challenge Do you want to leave our title leaders with?

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske: 48:06

I think the challenge I would offer is to assume you're not right. I trap all the time, right? Like I come in, I have an agenda. There's something I want to accomplish. And I'm like, How do I get everybody on board. And it's a challenge for me to step back. And I mean, these are all really smart people, they're all very capable to step back and like, let them solve the problem themselves. And in this actually just happen. Like a week ago, I had presented a problem. I let the undergrad studies committee handle it, I didn't go to the meeting. I didn't babysit them. And they came up with a solution I hadn't even thought about. And I was like, Oh, this is great. You know what I had, I had a goal in mind. And it would have been really easy for me to like steamroll. And just be like, make it happen. But that's not actually the kind of leader I want to be. And so this challenge to like, let them solve it. I don't have the only solution. I want to see what ideas other people bring to the table

Unknown: 49:18

has been

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske: 49:20

challenging and powerful. So that's the challenge. I would invite other folks to, especially if they're like me, let go the controls, you know, and see what other ideas come up when you turn the reins over to others.

Dr. Leah OH: 49:34

Yeah, and they love that that made me think of when you're talking about delegating to and I was thinking man, what a gift it is, especially when it's a leader or someone in a power position that I admire when they tap me into it. Could you help with this or what are your thoughts on this? That's really exciting for me. And I think that's something that we tend to forget again as high achievers as people are very capable. used to having so much on your plate, that taking the step back to feel, you know, who could do this what, you know, what could they do that can be really challenging, but it's also empowering to them and like you're pointing out, there might be things that they bring up that never would have crossed our minds. Right, right. Yeah, I love that suggestion, that challenge. And the last question. So advice, what do you want to leave employees all ranks across industries? What do you want to leave them with?

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske: 50:32

I'll probably go back to my, you know, explicit. Whatever it is, you know, the communication keys, I'm sure you can attest, it's just so powerful. Like, you know, I try to keep my door open all the time, if I'm in my office, unless I'm actually in a meeting, because I want people to feel like they can just drop in and talk to me about whatever. Now, sometimes, that results in a 45 minute conversation. But it's, it's just so powerful to have those relationships and that communication. To know that people can come to me, and I will listen, I don't always have to agree. But I will listen, I will advocate, I will support, you know, whatever they need for me. And that goes for students who are complaining about a classroom all the way out to, you know, co workers and colleagues that are having an issue that they need me to fix. And so I know it can be intimidating, a lot of times to like, come to a leader. And I still I chant I have that challenge. Like if I'm going to text my, my dean, which I don't even know, it's like, oh my gosh, like, I feel so good. When I tell people like you can text me like, if it's something that's urgent, and you need to get a hold of me, like, that's why you have my phone number. They're trying to like break down those barriers and open lines of communication so that I actually know what's going on. And that we're having these like, clear open communication channels, is so critical for leaders and for you know, everyone else.

Dr. Leah OH: 52:16

Yeah, right. So you think about all of the times that we have a question, if we don't ask it. A lot of times, we're working from assumptions. Many times those are inaccurate assumptions, because we didn't ask the questions. So yeah, I am again, I'm so biased toward communication. But when we are focusing on communication, work is easier. Relationships are easier homes. Everything gets easier when we have that focus. So yeah. So Megan, thank you so much for sharing your time and expertise. This has been just so much fun. I always learn from you. I know that our listeners are going to walk away with so many important tips and things to think about as they continue to navigate whether they go into STEM or across any other industry.

Dr. Megan Grunert Kowalske: 53:03

Well, thank you so much for having me. This was fun.

Dr. Leah OH: 53:07

All right, my friends. That wraps up our conversation today. Until next time, you indicate with intention and lead with purpose. Looking forward to chatting with you again soon on the communicative leader.