The Communicative Leader

Leadership, Innovation, and Awareness: A Conversation with Pia Wendelbo

• Dr. Leah OH / Pia Wendelbo • Season 4 • Episode 2

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Pia Wendelbo is the CEO of Scandinavian Change Agents.

She is dynamic and a wealth of expertise. Pia helps coach individuals and organizations on something that is really really hard for many of us – change.

Through her person-centered approach, Pia leaves us with really thoughtful actions we can enact right now. 

Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose.

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Dr. Leah OH:

Pia Wendelbo is the CEO of Scandinavian change agents. She is dynamic and a wealth of expertise. Pia helps coach individuals and organizations on something that is really really hard for so many of us change. Pia takes a person centered focus and integrates research from neuroscience and behavioral science to offer data driven solutions. Today, Pia chats with us about the intersection of leadership innovation and awareness. Hello, and welcome to the communicative leader hosted by me, Dr. Leah Omilion-Hodges, my friends call me Dr. OH. I'm a Professor of Communication and a leadership communication expert. And the communicative leader. We're working to make your work life what you want it to be. So, Pia, I'm so excited to have you on the communicative leader at you and your company, you have done so much. But before we dive in, can you give me a little bit of background on on yourself?

Pia Wendelbo:

Yes, for sure I can do so thank you so much for having me on there. I'm really looking forward to our chat here. And so yes, right now I'm Change Catalyst, and a consultant in my own company. But before I was that, I have actually been working in the corporate world for quite many years. So it's not unfamiliar for me to talk about change, I will say, Yeah, excellent.

Dr. Leah OH:

And one thing so I was preparing for this interview and looking at what you're what you're doing now. And right now you founded this consulting firm, you specialize in helping businesses navigate this ever evolving technology landscape, and to achieve digital transformation. So in thinking about this, can you kind of define digital transformation for us? And then help us understand? How do we know we've done it? Or how do we know we're, you know, we're moving in the right direction?

Pia Wendelbo:

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So you're fully right, digital transformation is a it's a huge word, right. But to me, digital transformation has a lot to do with with, of course, the as the word is saying, change, but what has changed then, so changes, of course, are often seen as something to do with technology, right. And that is, of course, part of a digital transformation. But for me, and what I focus a lot about is actually the human side of this transformation. So I think it's just as important to look at what's happens in an organization with the people inside the organization and the leaders of this organization, when you're trying to change something. Because from my perspective, when you're trying to implement a new piece of software, or a new process, or whatever it is, you also have to look at how does this then impact the whole organization, the people in it?

Dr. Leah OH:

I really, that speaks to me as an organizational scholar, because I think, as of late, many organizations still price or technology over their people. And I understand this as a huge financial commitment. But at the same time, what is that communicating to your to your workforce? So I love that you put people first.

Pia Wendelbo:

Exactly, exactly. And I think also for having success with with your transformation. You You still need people, right? So it's awesome to have new technology, but you still need people. So to act, and if they don't know how to then implement the new stuff, then you won't have success with your digital transformation transformation, as I see. So So for me, it is the sort of the people are in the center of this transformation. Yeah.

Dr. Leah OH:

And so my next question, so of course, you've already talked about being a change catalysts. And when we're embarking on these transformations, we know that part and parcel with change. So I imagine you encounter a number of clients, and then you have to help them work through limiting beliefs or old behavior patterns that are kind of holding them back. Can you kind of talk to us about how you do that?

Pia Wendelbo:

Yes, and of course, like recognizing also that to even get to the point to talk about these limiting beliefs, you need to build trust first, right? Because this is quite personal also for people to get to a point where they actually willing or to kind of talk to something about this. So So usually, I always start by figuring out where people actually are when I indicate with with a new company a new consulting situation so so what I know this was this was not really good. And sorry for for being here because I thought that we actually skipped the question before, so I didn't actually answer on how we achieve this. Oh, yeah, sorry. I was kept going in my mind. So I'm really sorry. So it kind of yeah, my mind thinking I'm really sorry.

Dr. Leah OH:

Oh, good. So do you want to? Do you want to speak to that first? So, I mean, do we ever really arrive at digital transformation? Or is just just always ongoing? Yeah,

Pia Wendelbo:

you're, you're on the right area, Leah, because I see it exactly the same way. Because of course, small steps forward is, is a success. But how can you how can you exactly measure how, how have you arrived, you know, on a digital transformation, and to me, you can't as such, you can never say that you're done, right? Because you aren't, it's got to be something that will keep evolving. So for me, it's more about looking at how you can constantly be in a mode where you are actually capable of changing so. So it's about actually implementing both innovation and transformation as part of the the way that you work as an organization. So it's a lot about how you actually are capable of adapting over and over again. But then in terms of how you measure it, there's definitely ways that you can measure. And I would suggest to do that, always. So, for instance, when I kick something off, I always start with a point of departure. Where at some of the stuff that we talked about there is how do we see ourselves succeed? And also, how would it look like if we failed, because those two questions kind of give quite broad perspectives on where we're going. And then from that on, then we can start talking more specifically about what kind of goals are we then looking for, and then we can start is sort of creating some sub achievements that we can then run for. So it's very important, of course, to have these discussions. And it's important to measure. But being finished, I would say I would say never.

Dr. Leah OH:

Yeah. And I love that point of departure and kind of doing that initial role playing almost that forecasting to say, this is ideally where we want to go, this is a success. And this would be a failure, and you kind of have these bumpers, than to kind of help guide and check in throughout that. That process. Exactly.

Pia Wendelbo:

And also, when you ask a question to a team, you will also get very diverse perspectives on this particular topic. And that means that you also get the chance to actually align between each person because if you're not aligned in the team who's running around this, then you're not succeeding either. So it's very important, actually, also to have that alignment, both with the internal and the external experts. Yeah. Right. Exactly.

Dr. Leah OH:

And when you're talking about this as being ongoing, and kind of thinking back to that, limiting beliefs or behavior patterns, is that a hard sell? Sometimes I imagined for some people I know in corporate it's check, and then moving on to the next. So if this is something that we have to, I mean, I'm sure there are small checkmarks along the way, but essentially saying we we just need to be adaptable, we need to be open, I bet you have to do some work there with people. Definitely.

Pia Wendelbo:

So I actually in the beginning of a corporation, I always spend some time on actually interviewing people. So I usually have quite open dialogue to begin with, just to figure out whether we are actually in the same place and what they are actually expecting. So So being very open about what do you actually expect to get out of this because I want to be very open about where we're going. And also to see if they're actually willing to do what it takes because of working with transformation also means that you as a one initiating needs to be quite openly around what you are expecting, and where you are retrieving things and also changing yourself, because you might figure it out along the way that things needs to be very different from what you sort of expected in the beginning. So you yourself also needs to kind of be willing to go on a on a kind of a change journey as well. And then on top of that, I always discuss partnership, because to me, this is not just as you were saying before, some kind of supplier that comes in and just deliver something to me, this is a true partnership. So we actually need to work on that trust. And when you kind of have that, then it's way easier also to then start talking about this limiting beliefs, right. So it's about discussing how that happens. And I think like the limiting belief in itself, it's something that happens to all of us, I think, at some point, we all feel that feeling. So it's also about making it general making it something that you are not alone, right. So so basically going into the neuroscience part of it, and you want the sense of belonging and when you know that this is not weird, or not something that anybody else feels then it's safer to say it out loud. So it's about giving those examples and actually to Walking around it in such a way that people feel comfortable in actually putting those things on the table. So it's a lot about the empathy and how you approach it, I would say, Yeah.

Dr. Leah OH:

And I'm listening to you, and I'm just thinking, I want you to come to my organization, any organization, I work in just that, the fact that you have these conversations, and they're not done, it's this ongoing and recognizing, you know, no one likes to feel isolated. No one No really thrives when they're siloed. And this helps, you know, in addition to the digital transformation, just the, the human communication aspect of your work is really phenomenal. So thank you for that. Yeah. You just kind of touched on that neuroscience. And my next question. I really love this, that you're integrating neuroscience and behavioral factors. So can you discuss with us any specific techniques or strategies you use with your coaching or mentoring that are grounded in neuroscience or behavioral research? Yeah,

Pia Wendelbo:

for sure. That's quite many different models. Of course, it depends a lot on the specific situation, what I choose to bring in. But one simple model that I usually use, at some point, at least is what I call the Bf, a model behavior friction solution. And that means that when we're kicking off this transformation, then quite many leaders, they don't really realize, you know, what is it actually that we are off that we just want some some news process to work very nicely, right, on your system to work nicely. But then we end up looking behind the wheels of everything. So what I'm trying to put on the table here would actually be, what kind of behaviors? are we actually looking for here? To really dig down and then see, okay, what did we do before? What would what do we want people to do now for for for the future? So being quite specific, I would say, actually, but what happens when you are actually really digging deeper and trying to understand these behavioral things, then it makes it more obvious for you to then go to the next point, looking for frictions, because that's very important, right? You need to understand exactly what kind of frictions could there actually be for implementing this particular thing. It can be a customer journey, it can be something internal in their in the organization, because that's another thing, I also see that of course, it's very popular to look at the customer journeys, which are super important, of course, right. But what I often see lacking is then when you are then really focusing on creating the best possible customer journey, then you kind of tend to forget what's going on behind the wheels, right? So the employee journeys are just as important in this as well. And for managers, and sea levels as well, they need to understand that just putting a new system or a new function or new culture, whatever it is that you're trying to transform here, it will have a huge impact on each person in the organization. So understanding those smoke frictions is very important. So really going down and understanding, asking, being curious, investigating, sitting in the same chair, as those people understanding the process is quite important. And then when we have the frictions, then you can start figuring out concrete solutions for each friction. So even though it might seem Whoa, this is, this is this takes some time. Yes, it does. But it's slow is fast. In this case, I would say, because that's actually where you find your success. If you really understand those frictions. And then you are able to find solutions for each one of them, then you have a far better chance of having a long term sustainable change.

Dr. Leah OH:

Yes. And I love that approach slowest fast in this case, because you're right, when you're doing it right, there are more steps. But when we're thinking about the system as a whole and thinking about all of the pieces in the system, I think you are finding you're more likely to have success. Yeah,

Pia Wendelbo:

exactly. Yeah. And forcing yourself to go into those details. Like really, okay, what is it actually, we want to get out of this, you know, many times it's, it can be quite fluffy and very strategic or superficial here, beginning, right. But really forcing yourself to go back and go back and go back until you find something that is concrete enough that you can stop measuring on it. It helps you a lot in this process. Yep.

Dr. Leah OH:

Excellent. And I love that connection with the measurement plus also being there the field and just really capturing in a holistic way. What's going on, follow up question to that. And I think this will be a fun one for you with thinking about some of the significant changes or success stories that result of incorporating this neuroscience and behavioral factors into your coaching and consulting.

Pia Wendelbo:

Yeah, so one thing is definitely better decision making because the more you go into the distance and you start understanding what how do you actually take decisions how to human people actually take decisions. And here we are back to some another theory actually of behavioral design called the dual process theory, I'm not sure if you know that one. But it's system one and two, for instance. So so being able to navigate around that also helps you understand how people take decisions. And that is quite important also, in terms of getting everybody to onboard to a change. So better decision making is definitely one thing you get our, I would also say better empowerment and clear sights, in terms of your next moves, because understanding and also starting to teach each person in the organization around how you navigate in this change, a gives gives everybody more empowerment. So a lot of this also, instead of you may be trying to push something is sort of on top of your organization. This is also a lot about as we started talking about listening in understanding, investigating, you know, looking at the different processes and stuff that people are doing. And by sitting there listening and watching, then you also interact with each person in the organization and then feel listened to right. And they feel that they are obligated and allowed to come with ideas and how this can improve, because those are the specialists, they are the specialist that sits with the day to day tasks. So so a lot of beautiful things happens actually, when you start really engaging with the persons in the organization. So this whole empowerment and the feeling of you being part of this change, really completely change the way that the whole organization actually sort of empower themselves into this working. Yeah, a couple of

Dr. Leah OH:

examples. And I was thinking when you were talking what a gift to give employees. Right empowerment. And with that better decision making. So I think that so often, especially when we become adults, you you don't get a lot of those gifts, you're out of the classroom or out of these kind of more traditional systems that kind of applaud you and check in and, and there's some things that people do for retooling, but just as a whole, if I felt my voice mattered, people want to listen, I'm empowered and safe to speak up. And I feel like I can trust my decision making processes in a more solid way. I mean, wow, that's really incredible for the employee experience. Exactly.

Pia Wendelbo:

So that's another thing here, so so definitely also see happier employees, because they exactly are way more engaged, and they have a higher sense of belonging. And going back again, actually, to the neuroscience, we all want to be belonging, right, we want to have that sense of belonging. So that's quite important actually, is so Yep, definitely a very positive upside as well for this one. And then high performance teams as well, because you kind of also create the trust, right. And in this process, when you're really digging deeper, and you're also talking about these frictions. And even in the beginning, as we were talking about, like, how does failure look like? How does success look like? You already are showing the team that you know, it's okay to talk about things that could go wrong as well, right. And if you want to build high performance teams, the trust there in the team needs to be there to tell exactly what's going on. So if you don't believe in the timeline, if you don't believe that this particular thing we are trying to develop right now works, you should be able to say it out loud, right? Because if you do so then you will avoid a huge disaster, you can take them, you know, in the run, which is much faster, cheaper and better in terms of change. Right? Exactly,

Dr. Leah OH:

exactly. Gosh, I just I'm struck by how so often, the simplest things are the most impactful. But we tend to make everything so complicated, or like, oh, no, I'm gonna blow past that red flag or that internal, like you said, like if I'm in charge of a process, and I think there's no way this timeline is going to work. But if I don't say that, we get to a point where maybe it works, but I am definitely worse for where, because of it. Or more likely it doesn't work. And then we're back at ground. Ground one again. Exactly,

Pia Wendelbo:

exactly. But that's a lot to do with what I do, because it's not necessarily like, difficult as such. But But yeah, it's the simple things, but it's just how we work right, huh?

Dr. Leah OH:

Yeah, yeah, it's beautiful. So another thing when I was preparing I was I was thinking about how you work with clients that maybe struggle with self awareness, or maybe they've had challenges and working well with others. So from you know, with your mentor, coach, your your mentor hat, your coaching hat, how do you approach those interactions?

Pia Wendelbo:

Yes. also a very good question. And I do a lot of different things. I will say, of course, this is also very much to do with the particular person is standing there. But again, I try to, to talk to people around how we actually work at first and so so is it actually confronting that person, if there's a limiting belief, or some some particular thinking that they are stuck with, you know, trying to figure out what is actually behind that. So where does that actually comes from? You know, why do we actually sit with that limiting belief? And can you actually prove it? Because often what I see when you start asking questions around that, it's more in our minds, that it's something that we can actually prove, we're just thinking that people perceive us in a certain way, or this, there's this particular thing blocking us. So most of the time, it's just in our mind. So it's about understanding that it's you who can control your feelings, you know, in the end of it, even though you don't feel like in the situation. So so it's, it's, it's about learning those triggers, you know, when this particular flag pops up and say, Hey, you shouldn't do that, that or you're not good enough, or whatever it is that this voice is telling you, then, you know, hey, there's a flag. And then you should you allow yourself to say, okay, maybe let's pause for a second here and say, who's actually in charge hates me who's in charge of my feelings? So what where is this actually coming from? And another very effectful thing you can actually do when these things pop up is, is something quite funny, that I usually also introduce is, it's this worrying boutique? So it's a fatigue of worries, and how our mind works, right? We pop up with lots of questions and doubts and stuff going around and round around in our head, right? But if we can kind of allow them still to be there, but not deal with them right now in the situation, because you actually need your mind to focus on something else. Right now. Right? That is more eventful. So you can start to say to yourself, Okay, it's fine that you are feeling this right now. But the boutique of worries are not open before six o'clock tonight, for instance. And it might sound a bit funny, but actually, what your mind will do then is that it accepts that, okay, we're not going to deal with this particular feeling right? Now we can actually skip. And then for a week or two, you open your boutique at some particular point A during the day, and then what happens beautifully, is that over a very short period of time, you stop having those worries, because when you then stop and really look at them, they're like, Why do I actually feel like that? Okay, maybe it's not that bad, you know? So so they become smaller and smaller and smaller. And then in the end, you can you can really manage it doesn't make sense. It does.

Dr. Leah OH:

I'm just thinking about how, and I imagine part of why they become more minimal to is they just need to be acknowledged and validated. Like, yes, I hear you inadequacy, I hear you fear. But my boutique isn't open until Sunday at six. So check in then. And then it's like, oh, okay, I've already acknowledged that. And then the time i Yeah, yeah, I really, really liked that idea. That's in your right, and it frees you up and, you know, the meeting or the presentation or whatever decision making is going on. And

Pia Wendelbo:

the beautiful part of this is that you're not you're not not acknowledging your feeling, right, because that's not good. If you don't, then he so rightly. So. The beauty here is that you will acknowledge but not dealing with it right now.Yeah. Yeah, that's the trick. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Leah OH:

Excellent. I am 100% going to use that. So my follow up question is pretty similar. So with this work that you're doing, I imagine a lot of people are connecting with you about career goals, aspirational future places, but how do you kind of help them identify these future places where maybe they're unsure of where they want to go? It's not clear to them? Yeah.

Pia Wendelbo:

Yeah, exactly. So usually, what I do in those cases is that I start to talking to people about what do they actually see as stuff they really love doing? Because that's quite an easy place to start. So we usually start ticking into that and then trying to identify what kind of tasks what kind of particular jobs do you actually really love doing? Like when you really feel you're in flow. And then I usually ask them maybe for over a week or two to kind of monitor ties, everything they do and then say, Okay, this is something where I really feel I'm in flow. And when I'm talking about flow, I mean, you're completely lost in the job, right? You don't exist in time and space. It's just really good fun to do this and you feel that you can just, you know, keep on floating that that's when we fill in flow. And what I often see around this, which is quite interesting is that a lot of people, they're very good at a lot of stuff right? And They're maybe partners, their bosses or their colleagues or whoever in the company, they forced them to do stuff, because they are good at this, Oh, you're so good with this itself, please take this task, right. But that doesn't necessarily mean that you love doing it. Right. And that's a huge difference here. So what I'm after in this particular exercise is what do you really like to do what gives you flow motivation. So that's where we start. And then we also talk about the strength that you have, there's actually some some some exercises, I can give you links to this afterwards. So you can share that in the podcast. But there's a quite a cool tool, American tool, actually, where you can actually have a view of what are your top strengths. And then the beauty of this is that you connect your strengths with what you are then really loving doing, because that's what you should have more of. And then when you're starting to get a picture of that, then it's going to be so much easier for you then to connect that to what kind of tasks and jobs careers are you then looking for. And then I mix it with with kind of your visions, and also what you were taught what what you really love doing in general, like what are your activities, your sort of hobbies, and that kind of thing. So So you kind of have a full map of everything. And then it's really fun, because then you can start playing around and then saying, Why am I actually stuck in this particular position or job? It's not, it's maybe 30% of my time that I actually spend on stuff I really love doing right? It should be the other way around. Yes,

Dr. Leah OH:

exactly. And I love that that. Because I think for so many people, it probably feels too heavy and too abstract. But when you think of that as a little bit like a puzzle that you can put together, we have some, you know, strategies, you can use a Strengths Finder, just daily checking in what did I really enjoy today. And I think that is so powerful in helping people to recognize there are things that I enjoy, there are things I can lean into.

Pia Wendelbo:

Oh, yeah. And another beautiful thing about this also is that sometimes I have people coming in and then say, I hate my job, I'm so demotivated, I don't like what I'm doing. But then when we have had all these exercises and gone through this, then they actually figure out hey, why don't I ask my boss? For instance? Or if it's a year? Why don't I? Why don't I just remake my own sort of daily routines, right? Because why should I do this when I can do that, and then start interacting with people, because what you find out in a team often is that the things that you might love to do might not be the same things that the other person's love to do. So then in a team's thoughts switching, and talking about these things, and actually building on top of each other's strengths, then it's so powerful in terms of teamwork as well, because then everybody starts to really do what they love to do and are in flow, and then the productivity and the quality of what you're building or doing together. It erases tremendously, actually. So there are a lot of upsides in this. And then maybe you don't even want to shift your job. Maybe it was just because you were doing different tasks that you didn't love doing. You actually genuinely love your job. You just did didn't spend time with the right things.

Dr. Leah OH:

And what a powerful message if you can go to your manager and say, you know, I realized I really like a I don't like B so much. And they say here, you're so wonderful. We want to keep you let's figure out how we can get you doing more a and accepting those conversations. I mean, I'm just like, Yes, I am valued. I'm appreciated here what I do matters. And that transforms that workgroup.

Pia Wendelbo:

Exactly. Plus, you are also the proactive person, right? So which many doesn't love that, you know, you're not coming complaining in any way you actually coming with a solution. So you are coming showing, okay, I think we should move around this, you will, you will actually get better result out of me if I get to do this and this and this. And I have an idea that maybe this can be taken and done over here or this can be done here. Or maybe we should even stop doing because that's another interesting thing here as well. What should we stop doing? Because there's also a lot of stuff that we probably shouldn't spend time on. Right. But that's another that's another dialogue. Yeah, but topic, but but. But yeah.

Dr. Leah OH:

Excellent. And my follow up question, which is kind of, we've touched on this a little bit. But one thing I'm realizing and I think this is post, you know, the surge of the pandemic, in finding I'm having a lot of conversations with people who feel stuck or they feel a lack of motivation in their current career. So are there additional things that they can do to help them rediscover that passion or drive or kind of next steps?

Pia Wendelbo:

Yeah, I would, I would Definitely I would suggest them to start where we just discussed, like, what do I actually really love to do, because as you said, our minds that's actually going back again to neuroscience. So when you are trying to step out of something where you don't really know where you're going, right, it can be tremendously hard. And that taking that first step is sometimes really tough, right? So what you have to do is that you have to trigger your mind into allowing you to take that first step. And the smaller, you can make that first step, the better. So the smaller, you can kind of tell yourself, okay, this is just a little thing I need to go forward, the better so so. So try to think of how you can trunk whatever you are looking for here, how can you chunk it up into small, small, small pieces. So what would be the first little tiny thing you could do to take the first step in the direction you want to go in, that's one thing you could do. And other tool that I also think is quite interesting is actually looking at what you're after so many people, they, they tend to create their goals around a certain thing. Now, very simple, simple example, here, I want to run a marathon, right? Instead, I would go with trying to force yourself into identity goals instead. And then saying, I don't want to run a marathon, I want to be a sibylline runner, right? Because the other way you can kind of feel the difference here, here, you're just looking towards a certain specific goal, what happens then when you have run that marathon? What will you then do? Whereas if you are supreme runner, then you you kind of can evolve around it, right? And you can build all your habits around that identity goal as well. Because then you can start asking yourself, okay, to become a supreme runner, what what do I need to do, maybe I need to do a different training, maybe I need to eat differently, or sleep differently, or something else like that. So you can kind of angle all the habits and all the stuff you do back to this identity goal. So is it quite interesting, also, from a from, from an organizational point of view, like to look differently on, on how we actually achieve our goals. This is something that James clear from atomic habits. I know him, he talks a lot about so I think he has some really brilliant tools in terms of working with these identity based goals instead.

Dr. Leah OH:

Yes, I love that. I am familiar with the book, I've read the book, and I forgot about the shift to identity rather than behavioral goals. And when you're saying I'm like, Yes, this is this is brilliant. And, you know, I think of these commitments as growing lakes. So it's one thing like you said, if it's just a marathon, I run and around and around a little more, and I check off the marathon, and then maybe, maybe I'm stuck because I achieved that one goal. But you're right, when you're thinking about being a really excellent runner, there's a lot more that goes into that than just this one outcome at the end.

Pia Wendelbo:

Plus, it's also easy when you have these different identity goals in your life, then you can also measure everything up against it. So you can kind of say, okay, the direction I'm going in right now, here, that's not really helping my identity goal, right. So maybe I should do something differently. And what also happens is that when you really go deep, and then it's something you identify yourself with, then it's also easier for you to hold on to whatever happens and stuff you need to do to go in that direction. Because we know all of us knows, right, that there will be days where you don't you fall in, you fall in. And that's an other very important thing else. From an observational point of view. I see so many times, not any kinds of slack, or any kind of behavioral framework in place to actually help people bounce back to the good, right. So that's another reason why we often fail in these transformations. Because we don't have that framework in place. So so but back to these identity goals. If you're actually working with that, then it's going to be easier for you to bounce back because it's something you really deeply desire and want to do, right.

Dr. Leah OH:

Okay, so my next question is for you personally, because I just You are so accomplished. You do such incredible work. And I'm just wondering, so What tips do you have to You're staying current on all of these industry trends, these skills, whether it's technology or like you're reading these latest books that come out, so What tips do you have for for clients for us about how to keep up with everything?

Pia Wendelbo:

I listened to podcast Yeah, but I'm telling him that I Of course, also books and newsletters and that useful stuff, networking events. And then a very important thing for me, actually, I surround myself with people who also innovative and eager to learn. So I think the ecosystem here is very important actually. And then I also pick out education. So I continuously also take time out to educate myself continuously. So basically, what I do is that I have a system. So I work in flow myself, I have to take my own medicine, right. So I work in flow. So I'm very, very conscious about what kind of tasks I do throughout my day. So I have specific time schedules during the day where I do deep work. And I know don't allow meetings in that period, because I want to do deep work. And then, as part of my system, as well, I also have weekly, time set off for for education. And that can be reading certain articles that can be doing some school stuff, or whatever it is. But I think with the stuff that is going on right now, with so much change coming in, I think it's so so important that we actually take time off to constantly learn, because we need to adapt quickly, all the time. And I think, for me, at least, one of the very important meta skills of the future is quickly adapting and being capable of engaging and interacting with new knowledge all the time and applying it into something concrete. So really taking time off is important. And as we were just discussing, you know, our brains need the slack also to learn, we can't expect to take something in just and then move on with everything else going on the sciences. So so we need to have certain slack to actually take it in, and then you need to work with it. Right. So So that's very important. And don't take too much in that at once. So I also sometimes have, you know, a bucket list of a lot of stuff I want to do or learn or listening to, but then I tried to prioritize and then saying, Okay, today, on this my learning Friday, I'm going to concentrate on this particular topic. And then that's what I'm crunching on.

Dr. Leah OH:

Yeah, and I've never thought of it as an ecosystem. And that is, I'm really visual. I imagine many of the listeners are too, but kind of thinking about how all these webs are tied together and impacting one another. From having a learning Friday to blacking time on our calendar for work. And like you said, surrounding yourself with others who just always want to be curious, always want to be learning. Exactly. And

Pia Wendelbo:

it is actually yeah, people. It's really funny, because, as you know, I've worked many years with the innovation and the creativity and product development and everything. That's where I come from, right. And people are kind of afraid, Oh, you're so creative. So you have no systems, you have nothing right. But it's exactly the opposite. We have a lot of systems, because that's what frees our minds to be creative and innovative. So it's the opposite. So yes, I have a system and I have sit down and I have my calendar. And I block my things in so and then I've just have a promise to myself that this is my square, you know, where I'm deep working. So no meetings there. And if it stands there in front of you, it's easier for you to say no, to person, right? And then if it's not in your calendar, because if it's not in your calendar, then it doesn't exist. And especially in a big organization, right? If people actually make time in the calendars for certain things, then it's harder to book. Because most of the meetings that can wait a day or some hours or a week even, it's not that important. It's more to talk about, you know, what is most important right now, right? We just need to navigate with each other. So yeah, I'm a big fan of learning sessions. I'm a big fan of Monday, free meetings. Days, for instance, which we have also played a lot around within teams, bi weekly co sessions where we just creative where you have some time set off to actually just be creative, innovative, think deep. You know, do whatever feels interesting for you. Because that also recharges you because if you're working especially within I would say that the teams I mainly work with is within either development or innovation or combination of that and it's quite brain heavy, lots of stuff. So also freeing up your mind and having time for actually just flying high is quite liberal.

Dr. Leah OH:

Yeah, so I was just thinking like that would be really energizing. And then something I'm going to to be thinking about as a plan for my next semester and figuring out that boost and that flexibility and that creativity. Yeah,

Pia Wendelbo:

and then also imagine, you know, because one thing is that you do it yourself. But then if you can get the whole team or the apartments to actually do it. Imagine the power you get together of actually doing this together. And then of course, what you as the manager of this team, what is really important, what I try to then teach there is that you give them autonomy to actually make that happen. So you need to, of course, feel, you know, keep the pressure away. So, so he's quite interesting. But it's, it's actually interesting how fast that goes. Because if you keep saying, No, you can't book this team, you can't book us for meetings on Mondays because we do that, then most people actually accept it. So it's just about the way you tell the story and how you see it play right.

Dr. Leah OH:

Yeah, yep. So powerful change makers. Exactly. So I have two final questions for you. And they're related. And so on the communicative leader, we really like to leave our listeners with the pragmatic leadership or communication tips, advice and challenge. For our titled, leaders out there are managers, supervisors, all the way up to the C suite. What advice do you have for those folks?

Pia Wendelbo:

Yeah, I think one thing that I would like to have people reflect on is actually what can you let go off today to make room for your own transformation? In terms of what we were just talking, right? And also, you know, ask the same questions to your team. So what can you actually let go off today to make room for for for this transformation? And what will be the first little step that you can take to start acting on, on your dream or your goal?

Dr. Leah OH:

Yeah, I'm writing I'm writing notes, because I just it's so powerful, and freeing to think sometimes we need someone to actually pose the question. To us, we have someone who has given us permission to do it. And then to also give that grace to our team as well. That's, that's really communicating a lot.

Pia Wendelbo:

And then another interesting angle. So this could also be sure to ask yourself, if you have a partner in change, because that's another very powerful thing here. To actually have, as we were discussing, you know, a lot happens when you are more people around it. So who do you have as a partner in change, and that can be an internal person, or in my case, like, I'm often that person also to be that argument, in change for especially the managers, because they are often flying a bit around, they're alone in in these transformations. But also, for teams, it's very powerful when you set up IT teams, so you kind of have a body in your team that supports you with these change things. Because you know, as a team, you also fall back, if you have a new system you're trying to learn or relearn, or you're trying to implement agile working, or whatever it is, it's a lot of new stuff you need to take in and there'll be days where you're just bouncing back. So having a buddy kind of helps you right to keep you on track as well, because hopefully, that person can then draw you up. And then when you have a bad day, and then the other way around. Right,

Dr. Leah OH:

exactly. And with that in mind. So we talked about our titled leaders. So what about all of the other employees across industries across ranks? One, what do you want to leave them with?

Pia Wendelbo:

I think that generally, I think it's very important to be curious and stay open. So the more curious you are, the more you can actually stay open, the more you can investigate and research. The better. So, so slow, as fast as we kick this conversation off with right? I think is it's so important. I think my most important tool is actually my curiosity. Mm hmm.

Dr. Leah OH:

And what I love about that, is that something that we can start right now, we don't need to spend a bunch of time and trainings, we don't need new technology. It's not expensive, you know, in terms of a financial or even a time cost just to say, Huh, I'm wondering about that, or what is causing this feeling. And then I think to the empowerment of being an investigator, being that researcher is letting you know, you're not just stuck, you have some autonomy and agency here.

Pia Wendelbo:

Exactly. And that's actually also tools in terms of the behavior, right, because if you feel that you are in control, then you always can do stuff. You know, you're not in a position where you feel stuck, or you feel that you're out of sort of lack of being able to react, right. So so it's about giving the control back to yourself.

Dr. Leah OH:

Yeah, well, Pia thank you for sharing your expertise, your time. This has been so insightful and so valuable. I know I'm going to come back to this in a Your many times and I know it will really help listeners as well.

Pia Wendelbo:

Thank you so much. It was a pleasure to talk to you.

Dr. Leah OH:

All right, my friends. That wraps up our conversation today. Until next time, you indicate with intention and lead with purpose. I'm looking forward to chatting with you again soon. I'm the communicative leader.

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