The Communicative Leader
On The Communicative Leader, we're making your work life what you want it to be. Do you need years of training or special equipment? Not at all my friends. Simple, yet thoughtful changes in your communication can make great strides in displaying your leadership ability. And why the heck should you care about leadership communication? Well, communication is the yardstick others use to determine whether or not they see you as a leader. Ahhh don't be scared, I got you. We will walk through common organizational obstacles and chat about small, but meaningful communication-rooted changes you can integrate immediately. No more waiting for the workplace to become what you hope it will. Nope. You, my friends, will be empowered and equipped to make those changes. Let's have some fun! Can't get enough?
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The Communicative Leader
Manager Metaphors: Are you a Lion, A Coach, or the Anti-Midas? Exploring Applied Leadership Communication Research with Scott Shank
Scott Shank, PhD Candidate at Michigan State University, joins us this week and walks us through some interesting applied leadership communication research. Scott is also a former student, a research collaborator, and a friend!
Scott chats with us about some really interesting, really vivid, and really important applied leadership research.
If your manager is a lion, a coach, or the anti-Midas, what does that make you?
Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose.
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Today on the communicative leader, we welcome Scott Shank who is a PhD candidate at Michigan State University. Scott uses both qualitative and quantitative approaches to understand and explain the efficacy of leader communication, social support and social influence to enhance or undermine newcomer adjustment, leader member relationships and work group performance. In this episode, we look at some of our recent research on manager metaphors. Are you a lion, a coach or the anti Midas? And of course Scott leaves us with concrete applied leadership communication takeaways. Hello, and welcome to the communicative leader hosted by me, Dr. Leah Omilion-Hodges. My friends call me Dr. OH. I'm a Professor of Communication and a leadership communication expert, and the communicative leader. We're working to make your work life what you want it to be. So, Scott, thank you for joining us today on the communicative leader. I am thrilled to have you and that's that even that is an understatement. But before we dive into this fun conversation, can you give us a little background on yourself? Your connection to leadership communication?
Scott Shank:Yeah, absolutely. So, I have been studying leadership communication for a long time, I've been in various positions that have relied on Leadership for quite a bit. In fact, I've even taken leadership classes at Western Michigan University with the one and only
Dr. Leah OH:you don't say, yeah,
Scott Shank:so it's, um, you know, you, I guess for the audience's I had the the question of I love people, I love interacting with people. And I found that almost any getting anything done requires social influence. So I tend to be very relational type of person not liking to kind of appeal to authority or to position. So that has involved figuring out how do I communicate to inspire people? How do I communicate to motivate people, in most of my leadership context, has been working with people in a more developmental capacity. So I worked with college students, as a pastor for many years. I teach college courses, I may work with organizations, but most of it is within how do you help people grow and develop into different areas or competencies? So very pragmatic, which is why I think I was drawn to some of the courses you taught on persuasion and social influence, as well as leadership from a communication perspective.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, right. And I love how in you've always done the Scott, you've done this so well in figuring out, okay, what is the literature say? So you have these kind of data driven suggestions and a springboard, but you don't, you don't just leave it there. Like it's I use it as a springboard to say, how do I make these connections, more authentic and more genuine, and what I really want them to be and that's something I've always admired your ability to do, and to do it so well.
Scott Shank:Oh, thanks. I think just curiosity in the enjoyment of solving problems. And
Dr. Leah OH:yes, so speaking of tinkering, we've done a lot of research together. And we found some pretty interesting, very impactful findings. And one today, I'd like us to kind of talk about in greater detail is this recent publication on evocative metaphors managers and employees use to describe managerial attempts at enacting leadership? Wow, that's a mouthful. Yeah. So essentially, folks, we were looking at metaphors and saying, Well, what is your manager? And then what does that make you? And vice versa? We asked managers, what is your metaphor for managing? What does that make your team? So before we dive into this, what I think will be a really colorful chat, I'd like to ask you a few questions with the goal of leaving listeners with some practical takeaways and to kind of help them understand how we're doing this theoretical leadership communication work, but how it really can help them in the workplace. So to start, can you kind of talk to us about the importance of metaphors and maybe how these can be more helpful than just asking someone? A direct question?
Scott Shank:I think one of the important things that metaphors have to offer is it really focuses your attention on a specific area. So I'm talking to students about how a lot of times theories are like metaphors. We're saying this is like that, or we're comparing things. So if we say something like this leader is like a Lion, you know what it does, it draws our attention to all of the ways that the person is like a lion. But the thing about metaphors, it's, they're very insightful. But they also can result in some, like, I don't know, you could call it distortion, because it's, it's focusing our attention on all of the ways the metaphor works. But we kind of were backgrounding all of the ways. I mean, I'm sure whatever individual isn't entirely, like the metaphor suggests. So I really enjoy kind of the nuance the insight that this type of examination has to offer, because you get a lot of creative responses. So something of research, you know, that I've done is very, like, you know, measuring variable specifically looking for patterns. But when you ask someone, hey, what's a metaphor for your your managers approach to leadership, and then you just like quiet your mouth, and listen, it is fantastic, the things that come out the experiences that come to mind that may not even be consciously articulated before, but you really get this kind of vivid and nuanced understanding of how they've experienced leadership.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, you're right, because it's, it's so visual. And a lot of these metaphors are, like, hit you in a very visceral way, right? When you think about a manager who is a lion, right, they're like, my first thought is, you know, thinking about being in a enclosure with a lion and being very, very fearful. But we could also flip that, and we'll think about that later on, about how a lion can be really protective. So we have that employee experience, and we can really feel what that employee is feeling or trying to convey. Yeah, excellent. So another thing that we know, and you've kind of touched on this with your responses, a lot of research is very, based on variables, we're looking at outcomes, satisfaction, commitment, turnover. All important. We know we're not knocking those, but it does gloss over the complexity of communication, the importance of those, those interactions that are part of being in a in an organization. So when we think about this, can you kind of articulate to us why it's important that we look at this process, the communication interactions, the relationships, in addition to the behavioral outcomes? Oh,
Scott Shank:sure. Yeah, like, it's so important, I think the behavioral outcomes and a lot of like, quantitative research that identifies key predictors, like I like simplicity. So it's very valuable knowing like, hey, focus on these key behaviors that result in, you know, increased commitment or satisfaction, or whatever it is, we'd like to predict. But that doesn't give us kind of the the quality of experience. So I think with, sometimes if you look at I mean, you can look at a process approach, using some math and quantitative data, but it involves having access to how things change over time, which, you know, research would love to have, sometimes the easier way to get at kind of, like, descriptions of the process of how people communicate is simply by asking them, you know, tell us about your manager, tell us about your relationship with your manager, you know, describe to us, and granted, there's like, you know, pros and cons to all forms of research. But I think as we both appreciate the way that different approaches to observing, understanding, explaining an area of study, they're very complimentary. So I think this particular article was unique in just how it shed lights and it kind of liven up a lot of, you know, previous research that we've done, while emphasizing, you know, the kind of more communicative interactive, you get in some of these metaphors, how interaction with a manager makes them feel a lot of, you know, sentiment, I would say, you know, like I kind of used by one that refer to their manager as their distant cousin. Like, just think of all meant, like, I never have would have thought of this, but it just leaves you with kind of this weight of pondering what does that even mean and so rich in so like, kind of, I don't know, just it gives a little bit more vividness to these like relational things that don't always get captured when we're asking them to scale from one to five. Yeah, I
Dr. Leah OH:was. It's funny you say that I was just thinking of the one to five scale and I was like, okay, a distant cousin. Is that going to be a two? Is that gonna be a three? And certainly quant I was I was said I was raised as a quantitative scholar because that's how it feels right? I did. In most of my training, all quantitative, and then the very end started to realize I needed to talk to people to better understand what these statistics were saying what these patterns were saying. And so you're right, we can't have, we're not promoting one over another. But recognizing that there are, you know, huge benefits to both. But in this study, in particular, what we would have gotten, if we just used a Likert, one through five, one through seven scale to ask about your interactions with your manager, or your interactions with your employees was going to be really leaving us with a lot of questions. And understanding what those trends were. Right. So we're understanding why we have those trends. Right. So yeah, so we have like you said, sentiment here.
Scott Shank:Yeah. And to be honest, like, as I was going back through our studies, it would almost be fun to do this again. Because you learn so much by asking by the surprise of what people describe their, their managers as and what that means for them, because we also ask them if your manager is from blank, yeah, does that make you in the car? So getting kind of that understanding of, you know, relationship to ally in her in a relationship to the pilot? You know, I might be part of the crew. I could be I think a person pointed out the cargo like, so. Yeah, really. You're letting the person kind of speak in kind of lead, where we're going so that it manages feeds into the curiosity that we both have, which really made the study fun. Yes.
Dr. Leah OH:And Scott, can you remind everyone the metaphor that we used as part of the title that came from the data? Oh, remember?
Scott Shank:Yeah. Someone out there referred to their manager as the anti Midas, you know, King Midas, who everything that he touched turned to gold with in this case, their manager was the anti Midas in as they describe everything they touch turns to crap. So like, I mean, I was shocked, humoured, amused, but you know, saddened because you're like, Oh, my goodness. Yeah. This is someone's, like genuine experience. You know, granted, maybe they were being playful. But I mean, there's something to how they were describing, interact with in their 100%.
Dr. Leah OH:And do you remember they said, so my my managers, the anti Midas right, everything they touch turns to crap. That makes us right, the workgroup, this this participant in their peers, I still remember the throne upon which they sit? Yeah. So I don't think we could get more vivid than that in terms of being able to help someone to understand what it feels like in that particular workgroup from this person's perspective.
Scott Shank:Exactly. Wow.
Dr. Leah OH:So this is this is a really nice segue, Scott. So as a follow up, I'm wondering if you can help to explain and I don't know, you probably get this question a lot from folks outside of communication. I know, it's one I field a lot. But what is the communicative view of leadership? Well, let's start there. And then I then I have a follow up for that. So first, how do we see leadership slightly different than maybe someone in management or psychology or industrial and organizational Psych? Yeah.
Scott Shank:And I, I mean, I think we're not so much trying to identify like, what specific, you know, traits does the leader have that makes them stand out, or even like the extent to which they have a formal title, you know, select through organizational history, you've got the formal structure of the organization, but communication scholars, when we started looking at, like the, the communication networks, and lo and behold, we find, wow, there's a formal structure, but that's not how things get done. So I love the contrast between like a, a structure of authority, and a structure of influence, and being so interested in social influence. I tend to associate communicative leadership with the ability to communicate to interact strategically to use social influence. And this could I mean, there's a broad topic, we just, you know, wrote a chapter on framing together. We'll get into but, you know, there are so many ways that a communication can be leveraged in a variety of different contacts. And a lot of it is really context dependent. It depends on the relationship depends on you know, the organization or the units, culture climate. So I think to me communicate to view is a bit more complex. It's a bit more reliant upon messages and meaning in order to influence people towards the goal. Rather than maybe position or authority based leadership, maybe leadership that tries to identify like the key characteristics of the leader. We're very much interested in like what a leader says and does. And the, you know, the consequences, both good and bad.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, exactly. And a follow up, and you've kind of touched on this too. So from a communicative view, or perspective, how do we expect someone's communication to change when they move into that titled leadership position?
Scott Shank:Wow, this is a great question. Because I don't know, like, I'm thinking back to my own journey, when I went from like, a very competent individual performer, to now having responsibility to like lead and influence people. And you, you've just assume everyone else are just these competent individual performer just like, committed the organization ready to hit the ground running in then you realize, oh, my goodness, I don't think I have what it takes to motivate people to do things that I thought were just normal and good and positive. I would say that the expectations for how to communicate drastically change. Often I don't think there's a lot of training in, let's talk about how the relationship to your peers is now fundamentally altered now that you've received this kind of promotion and position, and how like, how you interact with them is going to change, they're going to look at you differently, they're gonna expect differently from you. And now, you know, advice, I think sometimes is better taken from a peer. But now, there are many ways I found that the position of authority somehow got in the way became like a speed bump, or stumbling block to the types of influence that I previously had, when I was kind of working side by side, not in every case. So that it's a new skill set. It's like motivating, inspiring directing, learning how to not only like create, or strategically like structure experience for the people you lead, but then to, to kind of implement and to communicate with them how to go about I mean, it seems like it's never never ending. Yes. Or, I had the satisfaction of just like, look at what I did look at what I contributed. But now, like, what you your contribution to an organization isn't so easily. Like, it's not as tangible. You know, and I think that's kind of the challenge. A lot of it is like, how you communicate, so that others, you know, are contributing or looking what they did? And I don't know, I could ramble on, but it's a very interesting kind of area in and I'm looking at some stuff on like socializing, not new members, to organizations, but new managers into our role. And I think, you know, if this is something your audience is interested in, maybe give, give her a shout out on, you know, what practically, we should be looking at?
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, thank you. Such a thoughtful response, Scott. Honestly, knowing you, I would not expect anything else that I cannot, when I was listening to you, the word I kept thinking about was responsibility. Right? So your responsibility with of course, with the position but with communication changes, in in really large ways. You almost flip it on your head. And I think to especially someone who's already in an organization, there are so many assumptions made. They know the culture they've been here, they have these pre established relationships. And we make the mistake of assuming it's going to be an easier transition. And actually, I think folks coming from the outside in, there are a lot of a lot more latitude. They're allotted a lot more. Oh, that's okay. You missed up to your new you don't know. We don't recognize how hard communicating in that new role can be and for all of the variety of reasons that you've you've addressed. At home. Yeah, thank you. And I love that idea of doing a episode just that. Okay. I'm a manager now. Now, what do I do? Yeah. So Scott, we've talked about the impact of metaphors. we've chatted about importance of looking at communication in the workplace. So now let's look at the fun stuff, the data. Can you walk us through the variety of metaphors we found and kind of how we how we tried to make sense of them.
Scott Shank:Yeah, I think well, first off, if I remember, the first round of data collection were happened with them, managers, practicing managers, titles, managers being interviewed, you know, and I think there are 2527 or so interviews, that was kind of the first we thought, this is really interesting, right? So you have like, some that, you know, viewed themselves kind of like in control of things like a, like a racecar driver, a pilot, others were like, felt helpless, like, Time Bomb, like really? What, what? Well, then, we had such rich metaphors of those, we thought, wouldn't it be interesting to kind of compare and contrast this? With what members think, you know, so unfortunately, we couldn't get like their direct reports, that would have been amazing. But we did get a, a completely different sample of people that to describe the metaphors that they would use to describe their own managers, and what that how that position them in life. So I was I found it very interesting one, the variety, like I don't, I mean, there are some commonalities. But we have like the distant cousin that I mentioned, my manager is a bump on a log. And my manager is like, a monkey trying to lead a pack of wolves. Right, so some of these are pretty, pretty negative. On the energetic dog, there's one person that described their managers a kick, Puppy yearning for life in a preemie. So this is very, very different those to my own conception, when I think of managers, right, and not all of them. 100% Yeah, no, negative from the members perspective. I remember one person said, Oh, my manager is the apple of my I describe them, or my, my manager as a tree planted by a river. And I mean, some of these really inspirational and motivated so it really the contrast was fun trying to identify some some patterns and some type of scheme to interpret these metaphors. Were as well.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, and I was I was just thinking of the one the tree by the river, I remember then, you know, if that is the manager, then this participant said they were they were able to like they were the wet the branches beneath branches. Yeah. So like part and parcel something life giving me something strong and sturdy is so different than that clumsy, big, clumsy dog, or worse yet, the puppy who's yearning for for affection and attention? Yeah, like you said, we saw the scope of, of experiences. I think we looked at powerful managers, empowered managers and powerless managers. As a way to kind of, to make sense of that. Yeah, so go ahead. Oh,
Scott Shank:yeah, one thing that kind of stood out is like, we were asking, what's a metaphor for their approach to leadership? Right. But it seems like so many of them, we didn't get approaches to leadership, we got like, people, like we got nouns we got descriptions of, of the person kind of exemplifying who they they believe their manager to be, or who the manager kind of saw themselves, right, like, so I think the the metaphors did elicit something important, something that, that maybe like, we didn't ponder enough on, you know, I think we could go back and look at some of these things and really tease out like, what does this mean, you know, and, and I think it'd be interesting to get a group of managers together in like a focus group or not even a focus group, but in a conference, and I think they would benefit and be surprised as if they just casually discussed you know, metaphors of leadership and the implications for those things.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, you are so right, Scott. And as always so insightful. So as you said, we asked them what is your managers approach? And as you just pointed out, they gave us noun say, Give us who they are. And I think yeah, between my managers, a coach or my managers, a member of the KGB, that was what really really stuck in my memory. So yes, and I you know, what, a fun dataset to revisit and continue to explore. So another juicy question and I when I was writing these questions, I was laughing so like, of course, you know, we really love leadership communication work when I see this as like juicy fun. But how did the metaphors managers offer for their own approach to leading How did that differ than the employee data set? Hmm.
Scott Shank:Well, if I, if I remember correctly, I don't know that the managers were like, you know, really, really positive, and the members were really, really negative, I think there was a kind of a blend in frequency of all three. And all of a both of them kind of tracks similarly with them, we did a coding scheme of some of them really kind of conveyed this kind of powerful manager, some kind of this powerless or helpless manager, and then some that were more empowering, they were kind of other focus. I think the the frequencies if we, when we looked at, from the manager metaphors versus the number metaphors, they were quite similar with, the majority of them were kind of empowering, positive, like Coach, the driver, like, like a very kind of motivating metaphors for management. But there were, you know, a good hefty number that were more negative that were powerful and power lists. So I don't think that we could have just looked at these in terms of positive or negative, but teasing out like, there are some differences between say, even, like powerful, so like, the lion. And maybe this kind of gets into another question. But like, the lion is a completely different metaphor, depending if like the co workers and the members are the Cubs that the lion is protecting, or the prey that the lion is facing. Right? So you got a little bit of that nuanced from getting these two perspectives in granted, it would be great to like, do an a replicate the study by asking the managers direct reports. So we could, like they're talking about the same person in it. But I wouldn't be surprised if these perceptions were different, right? So the way the manager sees certainly is not necessarily the same as the way that one member sees them, or multiple member sees them. Or there may even be some like, variety within their work group on how like one member season really positively, but the another person doesn't based upon those communication exchanges, interactions, etc.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, right. Because we think about, exactly, so someone who likes tough love, someone who's like, give me that constructive criticism, please be very direct to this is what I need. This is how I can make sense of it and respond is so different than another person who has a really hard time with direct either direct communication, with feedback presented in certain ways. So I think one employee might say, This is my coach, this is a person who's there on the sideline cheering for me letting me know when I need to pivot. And another person who's like, this is my, this is my critic, or this is a dictator. Right? Even like you're saying, same manager. So yeah, you hit on so many important things here, because I think you're right, this data set, when we looked at, we looked at the manager first, and then we had the employee data. We're like, Whoa, this is tracking in a very similar ways. And I don't, I don't know that I expected that. And as you hinted on, we have this section in the man in the publication, same but different, and you kind of talked about that lion. And I remember when we are going through and coding and making sense of the lion. So typically, when we're doing this qualitative work, and we're coding, right, if we see lion, it's going to be coded the same. But in this in this data set, it was really wildly different for many of these. So can you talk to us about how some have used that same metaphor, but to describe really different employee experiences?
Scott Shank:Yeah, absolutely. So the lion is probably the most stark because the contrast between the lions cubs in like the maternal instinct of a manager protecting the Cubs providing for the cubs in the safety is the complete opposite of the relation to a lion as being the prey that has to always be on guard. I mean, I think it like those like, you know, willed abuse, that's like, just reacting whenever the presence of the manager comes around, they're perked up and they're getting ready to run. But that wasn't the only difference. There was like the pilot, where some responses do the co workers and the team is the CO pilots or the flight attendants. Whereas others describe the the members as cargo, or in one case, casualties implying a plane crash. So you really did see that it wasn't like one metaphor was entirely good, or entirely bad, but the, the meaning associated with the new associations were based on experience. instance, with the individual. So some people love the structure of like a sergeant or Colonel, you know, supportive, they were protective, they were organized, where then others described a more as like power hungry dictators. So yeah, a parent even, you know, like the parent as like a leader, some people viewed the parent in these positive, nurturing caring ways. Whereas others like condescending and controlling, like, just like a parent, they're inhibiting my autonomy or contrast, just like a good parent, you know, they're, they're like, guiding me and like setting me up for learning or whatever. So I was a little while interested to find that, even though the same word or metaphor is being used, it really is grounded in the experience with that person to determine what that association is. And again, it kind of points out like, you know, metaphors, they draw our attention to some things, but then kind of background other things. So there's certain parts of, you know, these different metaphors that are kind of become a little bit more salient or more emphasized, than others, you know, made it take a little bit more time kind of going through this data, like, what do we have here? But really, as we started, like, going through and going through it again, and in picking up things like whoa, like this, this is really interesting. Yeah, yeah. And
Dr. Leah OH:I love that you brought up the pilot example, because, again, that, okay, my manager is like a pilot, but I'm part of the crew, or I'm a flight attendant, and we see we work together, we're on the same team. And then we switch my manager as a pilot, but I'm cargo, okay, I'm along for the ride. I've lost my agency autonomy, but not necessarily dangerous, then when I'm a casualty, right? Managers literally lead me to, you know, to mayhem. So, yeah, as you point out how powerful metaphors can be, and helping us to understand someone else's experience. So, you know, for me, this is, I love behavioral research, I love variables. I love doing the statistics and looking at those patterns. But there is something that we do mess when we don't look at these interactions at this particular level, and through a qualitative lens.
Scott Shank:Yeah, and I think part of the fun with this was, it helped us to think like we're trying to, like, how do you make sense of this? Yeah.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah.
Scott Shank:You know, cuz being familiar with like different leadership theories and different approaches. I mean, I find both of us, we're still trying to identify some type of patterns or models, which lead to a little bit later. But you know, the the nice thing about, you know, things can get messy when we're looking for things emerge from the ground up. But in some cases, if, if, if it happens to match the data, things that emerge might help you realize, ooh, I think we found a model that we can now test, if this is translate to different contexts. If we did it again, would we find similar results? So again, I am rambling now. But I, I think this is was great for inspiring some different types of thinking regarding like Leadership Theory and Practice and like, wow, like, how do I apply prior knowledge in light of pictures I'm getting from this data. Exactly.
Dr. Leah OH:And that is a perfect lead on to this next question is one thing that I'm really proud of in this work that we did in this publication when we're thinking about the discussion. So non academic folks or discussion, I always think about this is how we tie it together with a nice bow, we returned to our introduction, when we say, Hey, this is why it's important. Here's the problem that we're addressing, or here's the gap we're trying to fill, we return to the scholarly literature to say this is what's been done, that this is how what we've done has increased what we know are complicated what we know or changed what we know. So these discussions, we typically will look at them theoretically, again to speak to the scholarly literature. But then also pragmatically, what does this mean for folks in organizations, for our managers out there for our employees out there? And Scott, when we got to this, you had this ingenious idea of how to map the metaphors and we created a table and we looked at how the metaphor was used to describe power over people and power over environment, right? We could be high or low on on both of those. So in for us, this became a way to understand those fundamental differences in these metaphors and what this might mean for this type of enactment of leadership and communication. So can you to talk to us about this that, you know, the power over people and power over environment, what is this mean for employees? Sure.
Scott Shank:And this was kind of my attempt of just trying to, like I said, I like problem solving. I like figuring out puzzles. So this was an attempt to, like, how can we make sense of these things, because on the one hand, leaders and members both desired a powerful leader. But on the other hand, it was kind of like, there were contingencies on like how that power was used, whether or not you admired the leader, or whether or not you were afraid of the leader. So this was kind of like, an easy to buy to. So we've all encountered a leader or manager that uses their power to, you know, control, potentially command people, right? The Dictator, the dictator, leadership, I mean, we don't know that anyone likes it, I don't know anyone likes performing it, but sometimes, like things need to get done. So it does, as you know, kind of like a go to some people will rely on position. Or some people might rely on Karen's charisma, but the focus of the leadership is getting people to do what they want. But then there are some people that that weren't as interested in that. And I kind of from my own past, I've kind of teetered between these high, low, high low in my own leadership styles and approaches, where sometimes you can structure the environment, or sometimes you can stage experiences, or you can use your expertise, in order to initiate structure, how some, you know, leadership behaviors might refer to it, where you're more kind of using your power over the environment, to set things up so that people can do their work. You know, you're you're plowing the way getting rid of obstacles and things, but you're not so much, you know, using social influence or communicating with people. And I think both of these have potent effects, right, we can think of a leader that relies on high power over people and social influence for high, you know, almost like that. Strategic Systems Engineer, that is content to be in the background, you might not even know they're there. But they're coordinating and orchestrating the whole thing. So in the low low, like a kind of a laissez faire, a monkey leading a pack of wolves. Example we put under that, like, yeah, they're there, I mean, maybe less interesting. Or maybe more interesting, but we kind of just dismiss, probably not desirable. So let's move on to what's
Dr. Leah OH:going to be so successful. Yeah,
Scott Shank:to be as successful as a monkey leading a pack of wolves, maybe you need to exit for a time and in regroup. But then that the high power over people with high power over environment, there seem to be some like a, like the the athletic coach, or an orchestra conductor, that seemed to have expertise, and seemed to have an ability to coordinate systems to coordinate that knew the environment. So a coach knows the rules of the game, has developed strategies, has watched film of the other team knows the situation. And I think a coach is admired because of their acumen in taking command over the situation, but also knowing where to put people knowing how to use. So that was kind of some of the thinking behind this, of course, you and I, we have to put the most that high high box, we have to call it communicative leadership, because,
Dr. Leah OH:of course, he's got, you know, we're
Scott Shank:just some fans of little things. But I think, to get at the heart of what we're trying to do here, explaining some of the differences between a parent that says like, the parent that has no power over, you know, say, the situation, the peer group in his only just trying to direct the individual might come off as like, you know, constraining or like controlling, but you know, there's a parent that might think, you know, what does my child need to be successful? And they might set the child up. I mean, you don't want too much you don't want to like just I've heard the phrase lawnmower parent where you just, you know, mow down a path to go. Yeah, but but I think by having some expertise, having some influence both over environment and over people in a more balanced and constructive way. Seems to be like, I don't think a lot of employees or members have a problem with leaders and managers using power. I think it's expected, but it seems to be in a more balanced way in a more constructive way. And I just the things that stood out to me were, how some of the leaders were admired. And I know just I'm interpreting this through my own experiences. I don't necessarily like when people have power over me. But when they take command over the situation, right, don't we just look up to people that maybe in adversity, they appear on faith? I have uncertainty. I don't know what's going on. But you look at the manager, and it just appears like, they they're not concerned, because they're like, no, no, I got this, this situation and here before. And so I think like, kind of the interplay between those two, I don't know that we did. You know, I don't know that we did a thorough, you know, unpacking of this. There's there's to think about, but that kind of goes into the thinking of what what I had in mind when we're discussing it and trying to map it out. Yeah, yeah, certainly
Dr. Leah OH:another follow up. And I think when you were talking, I was thinking about the communication competence required for someone in that high high quadrant, right than someone who can power over people. Again, you we can think about it in so many different ways. But with the positive and I love your the coach analogy that you test out there, it's recognizing, because of my experience, because I've I know this game, because I've I've studied the other team and these different strategies. And because I know my people, so Well, I know I can move this person to this position, and give them a little time, and they're probably going to grow. And if it doesn't fit, they're going to be okay, if I move them back and recognizing another player, no, gotta leave them right there, this is what's going to be best for them. And so that's, that's a really helpful and healthy way of looking at power over people through communication. I think you're right, your communication too, if we want to exercise power over an environment, we have to be an incredibly complex communicator. So probably means connecting across departments, it means being able to think strategically about the resources we need and how we want to use them and communicating that vision in a persuasive way, in a compelling way. So again, I think it just really highlights those in managerial, you know, title leadership positions, that communication competence, is that ongoing skill, we have to continue to grow and to hone and to, to work on because it's just going to help us be more successful. Yeah. So Scott, with this, considering this work, you know, what are some practical suggestions for Title leaders? And is there a particular metaphor that they should strive for? That is better than another?
Scott Shank:No, that's a good question. And I think I could go a variety of different directions. In, I think, first thing that comes to mind was now that we get into practical suggestions. So now we're into the world of the manager, where they are asked slash required to wear a lot of hats, they probably don't have near the amount of time that they would wish to kind of sit back like we're doing just let's reflect on, you know, approach. Metaphors would probably be great, too. But most managers that I know and interact with time is their friend, they have a series of meetings, they have lots too much information, not enough time to process it. They're making decisions, they're doing a lot of things. So first off, hats off to all of you managers that are depressed, or busy doing it. So with that in mind, I'm going to try to make practical suggestions that are less like, you know, oh, my goodness, look at these academics talking. So I'll try that. Exactly. Yeah, they just don't know. So I think one thing that I think a manager should walk away, or maybe they already know this, there is not one ideal metaphor for leadership. So I know lots of books that I've read from popular press, they're like, tried to promote a certain style or, or here's some helpful, and I spent a couple of years trying in search of my ideal leadership type or my ideal forms of leadership. And I'm just not so sure one exists. I think you could be an effective bear. You can be an effective doctor, you could be an effective pilot. You could be I mean, huh, maybe like, maybe even an effective monkey once you learn how to pack of wolves. Exactly. Yeah. So I not getting caught up on what's the ideal, but looking at things practically in terms of how am I communicating with people and how, what is their experience with these interactions. So one thing that stood out To me is, you know, if you're focusing on, what's my ideal form of leadership? And maybe if you were to answer the question, what metaphor is your best represents your approach to leadership? I mean, this is a good exercise, but you might find these are very aspirational and ideals. To note that, to ask yourself the question, I wonder how my, you know, my direct reports, would describe my approach to leadership, it might be the case that they have no idea. They're not describing your approach to leadership, they're just creating some broad picture of who you are based upon the positive or negative experiences they've had with you. So for me, like I think, if you draw attention to the simple questions of like, is how is my desired approach to leadership? Would my direct reports view me as doing that or doing something different? I mean, that could be interesting, you know, conversation? Yeah, for sure. And then the other thing is, like, again, I don't think there's an ideal form of leadership, but narrowing things down to how am I communicating. And it doesn't mean that you have to communicate more, in this kind of this is like a different topic. But some other areas of research I'm interested in is the calibration of communication. Because when we looked at like, just more or less, we don't under we don't get at whether or not there's like a sweet spot. You know, communication is good to a point, but then too much of a good thing might not be worthwhile. So I think there's lots of things in leadership, that maybe it'd be worthwhile for managers to think, how much is the right amount? In addition to maybe like, the looking at these metaphors in terms of how their self understanding might be similar or different, or even different among the people they lead, you know, they're viewed differently and asking, like, why might that be? You know, I think those get I tried to be concrete, but they're not going to like reflecting on that. Of course.
Dr. Leah OH:No, you're right. I mean, because there's just so many, so many tangible, helpful suggestions we could pull from here. And I love the idea that you, you know, I think raising up that idea of what would my What would my team say? What would their man, what would their metaphor be? And is that something that I'm striving for? Is it something that I feel good about? And as you noted, I don't think I think the number one question I'm asked is a leadership communication scholar from, you know, people at soccer, the grocery store family members is like, what is the best leader, what what type of style should I be and like, not and you should be a scout leader, you should be a leader, like you need to lean into the best parts of your your natural abilities, and figuring out, you know, what are my strengths? What are areas for improvement, because then we have authenticity, right? We are genuine, because when we are trying to act like a Democratic leader, if that's not ours, or it's our interpretation of it, there is an ick factor, right? Because our people know that this just doesn't feel quite right. Right. So yeah, thank you for touching on all of that. And you're right, that Goldilocks level of communication is a hard one to find. But the more time we spend with people we recognize, okay, this person needs a little bit more. This is this equips them to be the best employee they can in this role. And there are others I'm thinking of John's work where he found the higher your leader member relationship, often you have less communicate communicative exchanges, because you understand each other, you're working from the same shared space of knowing so yeah. All right. Thank you, Scott. So now I want to shift gears. So we spent a lot of time talking about our manager metaphor publication. And now I want to look at what the work that you're doing as you finish your PhD. So can you tell us in layman's terms, what you're exploring?
Scott Shank:Sure. So I Curiosity has led me on a variety of topics. And as you know, the socialization of new members to organizations is something I've long been fascinated with. It has all of the elements of growth and development of adjustment of communication. So that's an area that I've been honing in on in a lot of past work, past work, the audience might know, has been interested in how organizations kind of structure the experience of new employees. So we think of onboarding. You think of those early, you know, trainings those early things. But what We're looking at in some some of the earliest essays on socialization. So like in 1960s, Bremen Wheeler talked about the importance of when a new member that's exposed to role models from the work group that they'll be working with. And although I think many have noted that you know, really it's the day to day workgroup that exerts a lot of influence to help a person adjust and socialize to the the norms and practices that they need to learn. A lot of the research has looked at what does the organization doing are complimented that with the individual newcomer? How does like their proactivity the extent to which they go about seeking information and things? How does. So what we're looking to do is extend that to focus in on the everyday workgroup. So if you go to work, chances are the HR department isn't shaping your norms, but it's the
Dr. Leah OH:really hope they aren't like, what is going on?
Scott Shank:Yeah, they gave you some information, they help orient checks to the organization, providing information about the history, the culture, you know, filling out those forms for like getting your benefits in order and like all of the things that need to take place before you start your job. But when you're actually doing your job, that's such a rich context for social learning from role modeling. And I think to like, let's face it, like if we have pressure to get things done, it likely may come from the peers that we're working with. So I know that's it's a little bit broad, I won't get into the technical details. But to sum up, I guess I'm interested in both that work group as the context that new people's new members of organizations kind of grow and adjust. And also, the kind of the influences that that Workgroup has like, whether it's like normative social influence, whether they're using information or communication, like just kind of, that's kind of the ballpark with which I'm playing.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, and so important, because like you said, we think about socialization, when you think about onboarding does that like, one day, two days, three days, maybe tops, and then go ahead, you are ready to spread your wings and fly? I mean, the research that I love leader member relationships, peer relationships at work group is so pivotal in shaping what work feels like, right? So I love that you are you're going to explore that entry in that perspective. Because again, we're we kind of act like it happens in a silo, this HR silo, and then we are like, No, we're good. And so really, really important contributions to the literature. And then the the takeaway. So that's my next question is the follow up. So tell us why this is important. And what takeaway lessons you think could come from this that would help employees in very real ways? Yeah.
Scott Shank:So I think one, it's important to just simply answer the question, does the socialization of a new member, does it is it different depending on the work group that they're part of? So if you have a really high performing and supportive work group, where if you have kind of a low performing, or maybe a high performing very low supportive group, that experience is going to be different? So that's one way like, how much does it matter? Because we know that sometimes people will, will thrive because of their individual kind of, you know, proactivity that go get them? So maybe, if you're a really high engaged and proactive person, it may not matter as much for like, if you're looking to take someone who is just learning, and but you want to socialize them, so that they become really high performing. Maybe this is more relevant to that. And then the second question is, what type of communication are they going to experience that really makes the difference? So this is where I'm looking at. This, like kind of a simple framework that I used to use when I was a leader did a lot of mentoring. And a lot of coordinating of different groups in what I tried to look at were these three aspects of like challenge, feedback and support. So I'm quite agree. And I think you'll appreciate this from like the elinext standpoint, because you're interacting with different people that all have various thresholds of challenge. So like, you can't challenge everyone the same. You can't. Everyone doesn't need the same amount of feedback for support. So like you mentioned, if like a person's transferring in, they have different needs than that. A person who just graduated college in his integrating into their first time career type job. So I'm interested like what type of messages what type of communication challenges a newcomer a little bit beyond their comfort zone? Maybe like messages that convey high standards or accountability for things along that camp. But then does the does the new member to what extent do they have quality feedback from members of their work, to let them know how they're doing, where they're standing, how they could grow? And then the third, I mean, social support becomes such an important part, especially in these uncertain environments where people have to learn, right there already. I mean, many new members are already a little hesitant. They're a little tentative, they don't want to be perceived or viewed as being less competent. They want to prove that they can do it. So a workgroup that conveys supportive messages. Those are kind of my my three ingredients, so to speak. Yeah. Well, we'll see. Well, we'll find out how to measure them. We will we'll look at them, and we'll see if Yeah, is there any difference between workgroups within the same organization? And is, are there some commonalities that like, hey, generally speaking, you know, these, these three things will help facilitate newcomers learning and adjustment to their role?
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, so, so interesting. And I mean, we can think about it, of course, the human humanistic perspective, this is right to do for employees, right. But then if you don't want to, that's not your, your lens, if we want to look at this from a more managerial HR cost perspective, reductions and turnover, right, maintain and retaining employees. So I think, you know, any way we look at it, we can see clear value to this work that you're doing. So to be continued. Yes.
Scott Shank:Hey, thanks. Yes.
Dr. Leah OH:So Scott, I have two final questions for you. As you know, I'm the communicative leader, we like to leave listeners with pragmatic leadership or communication tips. He was thinking, you know, you're a longtime listener, first time guest. From from that perspective, let's think of our title leaders first. So what is the tip advice or challenge you would like to leave them with?
Scott Shank:Wow. Um, so I'm not going to assume that I have incredible technical competence in management. But I've read a ton on leadership, I've been in leadership positions in something that that I think, is more important, that might often get overlooked, because it's not a tactic is I would encourage, titled managers to find someone to talk to, you know, have a person in your life, whether it's like a formal coach that you scheduled every two weeks, or if it's like another manager, like someone who experiences the similar things, that you can just spend 15 minutes, 20 minutes, every now and then talking about your experience. I think that is a form of communication that I haven't read a ton of articles about, but I think it'd be really interesting is the extent to which managers have a a network of similar peers with similar responsibilities that they can, you know, talk shop with, in in one of those meetings, I think it'd be fun, like, Wouldn't it be fun managers to, to kind of tease out in five minutes, 10 minutes, like, wow, what are some of the metaphors that have that would describe or exemplify some of these, maybe not the approach, but some of the different approaches over the years that you've tried, in this very challenging task of getting people to do their work to treat each other fairly, to be both productive and supportive, and in all of the other things that you can do to motivate them all of the things that you have? I'm sure you've tried a lot. So I hope this exploration of metaphors might prompt some kind of fun, interesting, maybe even funny conversations that you might have with with other managers.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, I love that response. Got so and I was also thinking even for, because we know this being in that title position, it can be lonely, we're not able there's certain information we can't share with our team. And that that can be a heavy burden. And so we have that connection there. We can access support. I was just asked I received an email asking for an episode entitled you don't have to do it alone. From the managers perspective, this idea of support, but I was also thinking and really hard times if you know, there's a extra stressful season having these managers being like, you know, my team's being a bunch of monkeys right now. What's your team being right? Could even flip but in a way to let off some pressure and to, you know, just connect over those shared similarities. I love that idea, Scott. Yeah. No one has ever made that recommendation on the communicative leader. So really great insight. And
Scott Shank:maybe like, if your audience wants to engage and reach out, maybe we can flip the script a little bit and ask what metaphor for employee slash direct reports like the, you know, the some literature talks about follower behavior or followership? Yeah, what metaphors come to mind when you think of those who lead that could live another interesting?
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, yeah. 100% to explore it from that perspective. And so you know, what's coming next? My last question. So we've talked about our formal titled leaders, what about all our other employees across industries across ranks? What advice tip or challenge related to leadership? Or communication? Do you want to leave them with?
Scott Shank:Okay, so this, I would think, so say you have a manager, you have no control over who they are, you know, you work for an organization, and you don't get to choose who the leader or the manager is. I, I would recommend in in, there's some, this is another research area of interest for me, or how leaders communicate how managers communicate to those they lead. But I think there's less on how do effective employees or members or followers communicate with their manager. And I think often, there's the idea that whoever has the most status needs to be the most proactive, like the responsibility for managing relations. Yeah, what's to them. But I've kind of I'm tinkering around with the measuring this, this idea called the communication acumen that the employer the direct report would have, where if you can learn to understand like, what your leader or manager is really about? What are what are their goals, what are they trying to do. And you can communicate in a way that establishes consistency with them. So if you understand, you likely have preferred communication styles or patterns, as does your manager, so if you can maybe take on some of the proactivity of understanding this, the way that the manager prefers to receive information prefers to share information, and if you can understand like what they're trying to do. And you can just shift a few things in, in how you do your work to help your manager GET wins, I think you will be surprised how it will transform your relationship with them. And you'll develop kind of the savvy, this kind of communication, calm, or acumen, which is really good. Like you're basically you're scanning and monitoring the environment you're looking, how can you behave and act in ways to not only get your individual responsibilities done, but to be not only a team player, but one that like says, hey, I want to help my team and my manager when that is only going to benefit you in the long run. So it's an area that I think needs a little bit more investigation, like what are people doing? Like, does this but but yeah, I'm thinking from a communication competence perspective, I'm so I have individual goals, but I also want to be kind of attentive and responsive to those around me, so that I can give my own goals while helping them achieve their goals. And I think that mindset, I mean, just think of what a refreshing change of pace that would be. If you if you become that person that your manager is like, Oh, my goodness, so refreshing. Like, it's almost like you read my mail, and you knew what I needed. And you're actually helping, you know, so that's, I could go on a little bit more, but that's my, my two cents.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah. I love that he kind of becoming the manager whisperer, the person who's this ultimate team player, and they kind of molded that position for themselves through their communication. And then recognizing that, you know, we're all better together.
Scott Shank:Yeah. And to be honest, I think it'll result in you the employer, the direct report, becoming more influential within your workgroup. I agree. And yeah, and developing the higher LM Max, which so many people Yeah, love to have, you know.
Dr. Leah OH:Exactly. Scott, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for sharing your expertise for sharing your time you've left Lois dinners with so many thoughtful and pragmatic tips to make their work life what they want it to be. Oh, well
Scott Shank:thank you for having me. It's been so fun to to connect and I can't wait till we can, you know, touch base and hang out again.
Dr. Leah OH:All right my friends. That wraps up our conversation today. Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose. Looking forward to chatting with you again soon on the communicative leader.
