The Communicative Leader
On The Communicative Leader, we're making your work life what you want it to be. Do you need years of training or special equipment? Not at all my friends. Simple, yet thoughtful changes in your communication can make great strides in displaying your leadership ability. And why the heck should you care about leadership communication? Well, communication is the yardstick others use to determine whether or not they see you as a leader. Ahhh don't be scared, I got you. We will walk through common organizational obstacles and chat about small, but meaningful communication-rooted changes you can integrate immediately. No more waiting for the workplace to become what you hope it will. Nope. You, my friends, will be empowered and equipped to make those changes. Let's have some fun! Can't get enough?
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The Communicative Leader
A Blueprint for Effective Leadership Communication: Building Relationships, Implementing Strategies, and Fostering Self-Awareness - A Conversation with Dr. Julien Mirivel and Dr. Alex Lyon
Hi Leaders,
This week Dr. Julien Mirivel and Dr. Alex Lyon join us and share so many incredible tips and challenges related to leadership communication with us.
Julien and Alex are communication scholars and teachers, and they showcase their expertise in their recent book, "Positive Communication For Leaders: Proven Strategies for Inspiring Unity and Effecting Change."
You will leave this episode with specific, manageable behaviors that you can use immediately!
Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose.
Looking for more leadership tips?
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Hey leader! Thanks for listening. For more leadership communication tips, check out https://www.thecommunicativeleader.com/
Today doctors Julien Mirivel and Alex Lyon join us on the communicative leader. Julien and Alex are fellow communication scholars and teachers and they've recently written a phenomenal book. It's called positive communication for leaders proven strategies for inspiring unity and effecting change. Friends, they leave us with so many thoughtful concrete leadership communication tips that you can begin using immediately. Let's dive in. Hello, and welcome to the communicative leader hosted by me Dr. Leah Omilion-Hodges. My friends call me Dr. Oh. I'm a Professor of Communication and a leadership communication expert, and the communicative leader. We're working to make your work life what you want it to be. Oh, Julien, Alex, thank you so much for joining us today on the communicative leader. It is so much fun to have fellow leadership communication scholars and researchers, obviously, you'd make the best dance partners for these conversations. So with that in mind, I'm going to ask you both Julian, I'll start with you. And then Alex would love to hear from you just, you know, a brief intro kind of what brought you to this area of Applied Leadership communication research.
Dr. Julien Mirivel:Hey, thank you so much. It's so nice to be with us with you, Leah. You know, so I'm a Professor of Communication at the University of Arkansas little rock where I have been now for 18 years. And my passion really for being applied began at the University of Colorado at Boulder where both Alex and I did our masters and PhD. I don't know that I was planning on starting to focus on leadership communication, it really began my passion was language and social interaction, the study of language, but also I always wanted to help people improve the way they communicate. And about 10 years ago, now, I developed a model and wrote a book called The Art of positive communication theory in practice in which I introduced a model that helps to get people thinking about how to communicate better. So ultimately, I started to realize that a lot of you know, and I began sharing these ideas with a number of stakeholders, from teachers, to advisors to leaders, and I realized I was doing a lot of leadership workshops. And so I think I kind of fell into leadership communication by extension of the model. And really have been enjoying it and learned a lot from Alex as we collaborate it together.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, excellent. And I love that you're already pointing out that once we communicate well in one area, how easily that helps our communication improve, you know, with family, with friends with all these other stakeholders. So thank you, Julian. Alex, can you tell us about yourself? Sure.
Dr. Alex Lyon:I've started in on the leadership focus. Before I even finished grad school, I was getting my masters out in Los Angeles at Cal State Northridge. And through a contact, I started interning at a consulting firm that specialized in executive coaching and workshops for high level executives. And I loved it and I, I've been doing that on the side ever since even though I continued on to go to the Ph. D. program in Boulder, and then started teaching full time as a professor like Julian. And I've just continued to do it ever since with an angle toward leadership. So I've published some articles, and usually the journal articles focus on the leader. And then I wrote a book several a number of years ago now on leaders, communication strategies for leaders as well. So I've always had that focus. I love it. I think that leaders have real disproportionate influence over the workplace. And so it's a great place to focus.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, thank you. And so now we're talking about a new book that you both have co authored together. And I'm, I'm so excited about this book, Alec shared a copy of really enjoyed it. And so I'm wondering in Julien, maybe you can get us started here, because, you know, it sounds like your model has grown and kind of fostered this new project. So what was the inspiration behind writing positive communication for leaders? And what do you hope, you know, your readers are going to take away from this book?
Dr. Julien Mirivel:So you know, as I mentioned, my, my lifelong passion really has been first figuring out how can I become a better communicator? And then how can I help other people use communication skills to create more meaningful relationships with people and ultimately apply that in a number of contexts? So the inspiration for the book really was the starting place was the model. Can we take this model in which I propose kind of six core behaviors of positive communication that I believe at the heart of creating good connections with people and apply it to the context of leadership And so I called Alex and I said, Hey, here's this idea, you know what you think we could do this together and, and then we joined forces, because Alex had this really strong organizational communication background, I was more trained as a language and social interaction scholar as an interpersonal communication scholar. And so we joined forces, with the goal of making of taking the science of communication in the art of communication, and making it as practical as possible for people who are doing the hard work of being leaders. And I've been fortunate enough to have a number of those roles. You know, I've been a chair have been an Associate Dean of the dean of a college. So I knew kind of what it was like to be on the ground. And we wanted to make this book, really a guide for people who are on the ground trying to communicate better with others.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, and I love that you start from a place of positivity, because if we think of the conversations that are titled leaders have to have day in and day out, I think starting with that assumption is already really setting them up to be successful. That's Alex might a question for you. So one thing I've really enjoyed about the book, were all of the excerpts of these, these interviews with experienced leaders across sectors. Can you give us an example of an interview that's really stuck with you that kind of stands out and tell us why?
Dr. Alex Lyon:Well, probably my favorite interview for the book that Julian and I did a duo interview was with our former supervisor, Rob, he was our chair, when we both worked at University of Arkansas, that rock, he's now gone on to become a dean at UNLV. And he's amazing. Well, in the book, we started saying, Who should we talk to? And we kept thinking, we should ask Rob, because Rob does a lot of these things. And then we had a fantastic interview with our former supervisor. And he really, he really embodies quite a bit of the model in the book. And so that was a really fun one, especially when, you know, he would challenge us, kind of like our old mentor, you know, and say, Well, I don't know, what do you think about this, and you push us a little bit. And, and that was wonderful, too, probably the most memorable one for me, he had a lot of practical takeaways. And we ended up quoting them throughout the book. So it was a lot of fun.
Dr. Leah OH:Gosh, and how special for him. And I'm sure, as you both know, through your scholarship and writing this book, more often than not, in my experience, it's people saying my managers not so good, helped me manage my manager. So it's nice that you, you can go back to that experience that positivity and feature that for others.
Dr. Alex Lyon:Yeah, we were really fortunate to have him as a mentor. And I've been really fortunate to I know a lot of people will complain about their bosses, I think I've had probably 80% Maybe that the old 8020 rule, like 80% of my supervisors in my life have been excellent. So I think I've been real fortunate.
Dr. Julien Mirivel:I will say, you know, we talk in the book about how when you practice positive communication, you you become a positive influence and an inspirational individual, for other people. And in the case of Alex, and I mean, Rob, is an inspirational leader, you know, I feel like I grew so much as a result of having him as a chair. He was attentive, he was a good mentor, he was optimistic, he helped us sort through the challenges of developing an early career, he was present. And he believed in the power of relationships, you know, we quote him a lot, because he says that the end outcome isn't to try to control people and manipulate them, the end outcome is building meaningful relationships. That's what matters. And that will carry you through a lot of challenges as a leader. And anyway, it's to me, and I'm sure Alex feels that too, you know, the book is a bit of a of a thank you to him, we start the whole book with a story about soccer players and how they play to, to be thankful for the leader that they have. I feel like we kind of wrote the book as a thank you to to rob and others who shaped us.
Dr. Leah OH:Agreed. Yeah, what an honor. And this, that's a really lovely segue, because, you know, we're communication scholars. And Julien, I'm wondering, too, with your specific training in interaction, you know, we know the importance of communication, and we just talked about it right, in your, we know, it's complex, and all of this is communicative. And I'm wondering what are you know, we're gonna get to this at the end these takeaways, but, you know, if you could offer a couple of concrete strategies or tips for leaders right now, say, you know, I need to I need to be more mindful, my communication, I need to improve these communication skills. What would you leave them with?
Dr. Julien Mirivel:Well, thanks for the question. You know, I mean, that's the heart of the model that I developed. So I focus on six key behaviors. There are others, there's probably 1000 things we can learn about how to communicate well. But I believe that those six are the fundamentals and the white belt skills that help us get to Black Belt performance. And simple things like we start with greeting in the book. But it's really not just saying, Hello, it's this idea of moving in the direction of people. And that can take on a lot more significance. So if you're a leader, and you're buried with tasks and goals and spreadsheets, you know, you start to feel like you don't have time to connect, and you have to make an intentional effort to create connection with the people that you work with. And more importantly, to create an environment where other people can connect with each other to create a more positive culture. Or we, you know, these days when we like, I'm about to go give a workshop on difficult conversations here. You know, one of the most helpful tools seems super basic, but it crosses across all the literature we have, which is the power of questions and learning how to ask a meaningful, open ended question. You know, it's hard to do an interview like this one, but it's even harder when people are different from you. So what we what we try to do in the book is we take the six behaviors, and we unpack them slowly. So people know, here's what I can do at my level, here's what I can do at my team level, here's what I can do on my group organizational level.
Dr. Leah OH:Yes, and I love that because then we see change throughout because they think, so often, we give advice at maybe just the individual level, and we forget about the dyadic or we forget about the team, we recognize these are interdependent and and I thank you all for thinking through that ahead of time. And, you know, being so intentional. Thank you, Alex. Now, I am wondering, you know, we've talked about managing relationships. And we know that this is really the heart of leadership. So you know, returning to your book, can you share a case or an excerpt from, you know, where we had effective communication that led to some positive outcomes in a challenging or difficult situation?
Dr. Alex Lyon:Yeah, sure. One that comes to mind was one we picked up through an interview with Anne Ricketts from Lighthouse Communications. She does consulting workshops and things just like we do. She was worked, but we interviewed her for the book. And she told us about this director of AI team in Silicon Valley. And she was really competent and good at her job. But over time, and especially with COVID. And using zoom, she fell out of the habit of encouraging and giving positive feedback to her team, and didn't really invest in the relationship. She was good at delegating tasks not so good at encouraging. And so some of her best supervisors left and were not willing to be talked out of it. So she was working with our friend and, and said, look what's going on, you know, and she said, I just, I personally don't need that kind of encouragement day to day, so I tend not to give it to others. Well, maybe she is confident now. But when in the beginning of her career, you know, she did get that encouragement from her bosses until she felt confident so and worked with her and did really exactly the some of the same things that we ended up recommending in the book, which is why we have the story in there, she started giving encouragement to people positive feedback to people, connecting with people and integrating it into her routine, even though it wasn't natural for her. It wasn't something that she did. With you know, just, she woke up and was an encouraging person, she put it out, literally put it on her to do list to reach out and courage and connect with their people. And the rest of the team said, You know what, this is a big deal. This is an improvement, we see that you're making the effort, and we appreciate that you're willing to adapt and level up your leadership.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, what a powerful story because we know that if we're not communicating intentionally, if we're not meeting those audience needs there. Are there big consequences.
Dr. Alex Lyon:Yeah, that's right. People have options, especially nowadays. Options, they'll just leave. Mm hmm.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah. That made me think some of the best advice I got when I was a brand new assistant professor was from Lee Ford. She was my chair at the time and she said, Remember, every student is not Alia, right? You're not just teaching yourself. And it was so helpful, because then I'm like, why are they okay with the sea? Or why don't they cut like things that my brain did not understand? Because that's not how I operated as a student. And that's just been so helpful, and we don't even think about it sometimes with my kids, right? You are not me. That's not what you need. And certainly you shared a really powerful example, in the workplace. Right. So, Julien, I want to ask you a question. Your book has these wonderful chocolate As for assessing approaches and setting goals, and I think this is a really helpful tool as people can have worked through their leadership communication. So can you talk to us about these checklists and help us understand how leaders can use them to improve their skills?
Dr. Julien Mirivel:Yeah, I think, you know, in order to develop your communication competency, you, you have to do quite a bit of things, right. On the one hand, you have to develop what we could call your theoretical understanding. So knowledge does help you improve your communication competency. Another thing you have to try to do is develop your skills. That is there are techniques out there, we try to teach them in the book. And hopefully, if you implement those techniques, they should improve the way you interact with others. But one essential element of building communication competency is self awareness, because it is not just a science, it is an art. And it's a lifelong journey. I mean, Alex and I have studied communication our whole lives, and we're not perfect communicators. So around the book, we do offer moments of reflection, right? And it can be as simple as well, you know, take a moment here after five days and observe how many times have you connected with your team on a one to one basis? Or check your emails when you're sending an email? Are you including a greeting at the opening and a warm ending at the end? So we have to because sometimes I think what really hurts us in our communication is we're not conscious of what we do. And we're not intentional. So part of learning to communicate better is to obviously, deepen your theoretical understanding with concepts and ideas. But then you have to kind of transition to self awareness of how am I doing this? And I find that that journey is probably the most important in building your communication competency long term.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, go ahead. Alex, what are your thoughts? No,
Dr. Alex Lyon:I agree completely. I agree completely. We we, I was thinking exactly the same thing. Self awareness. A lot of people will say, Oh, yeah, yeah, good listening. That's important. We got to listen. But then, are you really listening? Or are you just saying, in theory, listening is a good idea. So we wanted to keep people pulled into the book, we didn't want to make a book that people read, and then said to themselves, Oh, really interesting. And then they put it down. We wanted them to take the information and apply it in their practical life. And this, the self assessments and checklists are a start.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, because I think so often communication, I think, to me, and leadership skills gets grouped in with like health, am I healthier? And it's hard unless you have something concrete that you're looking for that you can assess, yes, no, or to what degree? It's really hard for us to say, Yes, I'm a better communicator, or am I not? So I appreciate that you brought in that, that solid check throughout throughout the book. And that leads to this next question. Maybe Alex, you can take this one, your book, you also have these really thoughtful exercises for for leaders to work on applying their learning. Like we're saying before you want to go beyond that's interesting, because it interesting, I think we have someone's attention for the moments that they have the book in their hand, and then it's then we lose it. It's done. So with that in mind, Alex, can you give us an example of an exercise that readers could do now to start practicing some of the techniques you discussed in the book?
Dr. Alex Lyon:Yeah, sure. Should we tell them about the gratefulness text? Julian?
Dr. Julien Mirivel:Yeah, I think that's a great one. That's exactly what I was thinking, yeah,
Dr. Alex Lyon:in our live workshops. And in the book, there's a challenge that we want you to just sort of stop reading, right? And encouragement to somebody in encouraging tax, and we give some sample language for that. And then have that brave moment where you actually take a deep breath and click send. And we do that we, in our workshops, we get people to do it live. So if they're in the room, we coach them through tech, and typing it up and sending it and that's the whole idea is putting it into practice. If it remains on the page, then we've only done part of our job. So and you know, people are very uncomfortable sending texts, like that encouragement, but people need encouragement. And it's really fun to hear the responses that people get even live during the workshop like whoa, what's going on in your okay, you know, they don't expect these kinds of texts from people. So that's, that's one of the many, many challenges that we put in there so that people can get a taste for it. It's, it's one thing, it's almost like being a movie critic. You know, you can watch a movie, and you can say, Oh, here's what they should have done better. But then go try to make your own movie and see how hard that is. That's the real difference is is the theory versus the practice. So we try Gonna push people into taking steps actual behaviors instead of just reading another page.
Dr. Julien Mirivel:I would just wanted to add here that because, you know, part of our I think philosophy and the principle of positive communication is that, and we do share that when we do talks together is that in the in the realm of leadership and relationship, what you think does not really matter, what you feel does not really matter. People don't have access to your thoughts, they don't have access to your feelings, but they do have access to your actions. And so that's why, you know, many people have thought, oh, man, this person needs encouragement, or, you know, maybe I should tell them that they did a great job on this project, they may have the thought, but until it's expressed, it's not going to have the impact on the relationship. And so we really try to make a point throughout the book to, to invite people to do it, communication has to be done for it to have an impact.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, yeah. I love that. They're subtle, right? How many times I was just texting with a friend. And she's like, sorry, I responded in my head, you know, so yeah, text, everything open for a few days. And, and we've all been there, and we were moving too quickly. But you help us to unpack the importance of slowing down and actually making sure those actions are what are communicated. Great. So Julien, a question for you. Now, you talk about developing a communication plan. And this is something I think is so important, I used to work in public relations and marketing as I finished my master's in grad work. So it's something that I've kind of brought in, but only because of my previous life. So I'm going to be interested in how leaders can use this idea of a communication plan, and helping them to improve their communication techniques.
Dr. Julien Mirivel:Yeah, thanks for the question. So I mean, I think it returns to what we were just describing a little bit, right, our belief that reading about communication does not translate into improving your communication, what is going to improve your communication? Is you doing things differently? Or maybe practicing new behaviors that you haven't done? And you're gonna see the impact immediately, right? So if we ask people with a six behaviors, right, so greeting is the first one. If you ask people, Hey, maybe one of the things you can do and plan for is this week, you're going to make contact with three people you work with, you're going to grab one of them for lunch, maybe go and check somebody into their office, see how they're doing, maybe you schedule a coffee, it's undeniable to me that if you add these interactions, something magical is going to happen in the relationship? Or maybe you've got a meeting coming up. And so in the book, we give lots of examples of how to practice these behaviors. But maybe you start the whole meeting, not with the task. But with a question, right? The question can be simple, like, what's a recent event that brought you a lot of joy, the chair of my department did that recently. And I learned a lot from the way she's doing it. Or suddenly, we're all sharing examples and people are connecting. I use that a retreat recently, where 13 people had to we had to go around the table and answer that question. And I'm telling you, immediately the relationships change, because when you make a different move, that's going to lead to a different outcome. So the whole book is going to structure around this idea from, you know, complimenting to encouraging to listening deeply, maybe you can schedule, a deep listening session with some of your key team members. And I'm sure Alex has other things that's on his mind. So I'd love to hear what he would add to this as well.
Dr. Alex Lyon:No, that's great. I don't actually have a lot to add to that. I was just getting caught up in your story. As I always do.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, it's no same, like more. But one thing I was thinking about when you're bringing that up, and I love about your book is how concrete you are with these suggestions. Because I think communication again, when you say something like listen more, it feels so accessible. And everyone's like check, of course, I can do that. But then you realize it's harder than it sounds. And so you both do a really great job of unpacking, this is what this might look like, this is how you could actually do this. So I really appreciated that.
Dr. Julien Mirivel:Thank you so much.
Dr. Leah OH:So Alex, again, a question going back to an interview or a success story. So I'm wondering if there is I mean, we've already talked about your previous chair, but if there are other experiences from your life or from one of the interviews where you realize this positive communication this focus really played a critical role in either uniting people or effecting change. You know what, what kind comes to mind.
Dr. Alex Lyon:Well, one of the things that it's it's not in the books specifically, but it's come out of the book in our workshops is that we will ask people in real time to do some self disclosure and the way we do it, because that's one of the behaviors is to disclose to let people get to know you. And we do it by showing a couple pictures of my dogs on the screen. And I tell a little quick story about my dogs, and they're super adorable. And then I disclose, and then I say, Now how many of you right now want to talk about your dog, or your pet, or that special person in your life. And so we give everybody the opportunity for 60 seconds to take their phones out and show photos of the pets and people who are important to them. And you can feel the energy in the room gets so amazingly positive, and everybody feels like they know each other as whole human beings. And I do this now at work. So let's say I'm at a big meeting, and I'm at a table with some people I sort of know, but not always, I will literally just open my phone up and just show my dog, I'll be able to these my dogs, I do that. Now, I don't know if I told you that Julian, and they will immediately get their phone out and do the same. It's self disclosure and reciprocity. And it's like magic. It's a magic bullet. It works almost every single time. It's incredible. So, you know, my advice is just to take these basic behaviors, start doing them, and then you get better and better at them. And like Julian said, at the top of the call, you go from these white belt skills, but you end up with black belt performance or black belt execution because you get better at them as you practice them. Yeah.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, it's just so endearing it, it really reminds me of the sweetness of children interacting. And I think that we lose so much of that as we grow. But kids will run up and say, Hi, do you want to be my friend, let's swing. And it's, it's essentially that same idea. But as an adult, and recognizing, look, I can be vulnerable. These are special, you know, these are my these are my dogs are really important to me. And then people get to share as well. And then all of a sudden that guard, like you're saying is let down. And that makes work. I imagine so much easier. Because you can have difficult conversations, but in a way where we already have respect and some liking things that go a long way in collaboration.
Dr. Alex Lyon:Yeah, you know a lot about this, I don't want to derail the conversation, we have a you know a lot about liking and respect from your work on leader member exchange. It's about the relationship, right? Yeah, exactly.
Dr. Leah OH:So I don't want this conversation to end, we have two final questions. And I'm just gonna kind of put them out for both of you because they they work together well, so you can figure out, you know, who wants to respond to each one. But on the communicative leader, we always leave our listeners with pragmatic leadership or communication tips, challenges, advice. And it's a two parter, because their first is for, you know, our friends who are titled leaders. And then the second is for employees of all ranks across all industries.
Dr. Julien Mirivel:Would you like to start Alex Sure, I
Dr. Alex Lyon:can start. So in terms of leadership, I'll talk to the official leaders out there. We would like you to think in terms of the other bottom lines that you're pursuing, and we got this idea from Rob Omer, the guy we talked about that that was our chair. In organization, life and business and industry, we always think about the bottom line the numbers that matter the most to that institution. But we believe that relationships are also an equally important, if not more important, bottom line, that leaders should focus on developing relationships. Because in many cases, relationships will outlast the organization you work at will outlast an entire career. And it's why we still think about those first supervisors and first coworkers we had at our early jobs at the pizza place, or the wherever we go back to see our old high school coaches and teachers because of the relationship. It's outlasted every institutional connection. Companies will start and go out of business, but the relationship will remain sometimes lifelong. So we believe that relationships are a crucial bottom line for leaders to prioritize and even put it above many of the other pressing issues of the day.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, thank you, and what a transformative way to think about work, and I imagine that it would really transform the employee experience.
Dr. Julien Mirivel:Yeah, yeah. So I'm going to add maybe a bit of a twist here, you know, to kind of change things up. So for the last five years, I've been involved in conducting research over Around the world with women and men who live in utter poverty, who partner with an organization called Heifer International to try to end poverty in their lives in the life of their community. So we've done 1000s of surveys hundreds of in depth interviews with people in Uganda, India, Nepal, and Honduras. And one communication element comes at the top of the list when it comes to transforming your relationships, but also your own sense of confidence and well being, in the end, even the impact that you have in the community. And that is quite simple. We call it disclosure in the book, but for me, it's simply expressing your views, having the courage to speak up. So if you're a leader, have the courage to share who you are in a genuine and authentic way, in your meetings, in your stories, in your moments of connection. If you're an employee, don't be afraid of speaking up, obviously, respectfully, and, you know, with professionalism, but just this idea of moving from holding it in to expressing it, to me is at the heart of transforming who you are, and also the impact that you're going to have as a person.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, I agree. And you're right, we are thinking about courage. And we're thinking about then alleviating that burden we've been carrying, and that that made me think you all know, fellow communication scholar Ryan Beisel, but it wasn't he talks about the power of seconding being the second or me tuning. And that is such a nice when someone has a bravery and you're thinking, Gosh, I've noticed that I've been wondering about this that's been nagging at me, like Yeah, what about that? What can we do so we can recognize one to two voices really can change the way things function in our in our organization, or a family or community? That's very true. Well, Alex, Julien, this has truly been a pleasure. I am so thrilled to have you on the communicative leader. I've learned a lot and I know that our listeners will too.
Dr. Alex Lyon:Thanks for having us on having a real pleasure.
Dr. Leah OH:All right, my friends. That wraps up our conversation today. Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose. And looking forward to chatting with you again soon on the communicative leader.
