The Communicative Leader
On The Communicative Leader, we're making your work life what you want it to be. Do you need years of training or special equipment? Not at all my friends. Simple, yet thoughtful changes in your communication can make great strides in displaying your leadership ability. And why the heck should you care about leadership communication? Well, communication is the yardstick others use to determine whether or not they see you as a leader. Ahhh don't be scared, I got you. We will walk through common organizational obstacles and chat about small, but meaningful communication-rooted changes you can integrate immediately. No more waiting for the workplace to become what you hope it will. Nope. You, my friends, will be empowered and equipped to make those changes. Let's have some fun! Can't get enough?
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The Communicative Leader
Transforming Challenges into Opportunities: Insights from Amit and Dr. Kumar of the Chintan Project
What if your business could unlock unparalleled growth by understanding unspoken communication? Join us for a special episode of The Communicative Leader as we welcome Amit and Dr. Kumar from the Chintan Project.
Amit, who communicates through a laminated card due to his autism, shares his profound insights into human behavior and business leadership. His father, Dr. Kumar, reads Amit's thoughts aloud, adding a unique dynamic to their consulting approach that emphasizes the value of both spoken and unspoken communication.
We explore how the Chintan Project helps businesses thrive by focusing on individual and collective strengths. Hear how they guided a family-owned business through a challenging transition, integrating a new winery venture with existing operations. This episode also dives into topics such as humility, inclusion, and the importance of employee relations, drawing on wisdom from Peter Drucker. Learn how balanced feedback and recognizing the personal dynamics within an organization can foster empowerment and drive success. This is one episode you won't want to miss if you're committed to understanding the deeper layers of effective business leadership.
Some other takeaways:
- Recognize and capitalize on individual strengths in organizations
- Address the unique challenges and needs of employees and customers
- Overcome stigmas and misconceptions surrounding autism in the business world
- Focus on understanding and leveraging the human element in organizations Honoring people in business transitions is crucial for successful integrations
Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose.
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Hey leader! Thanks for listening. For more leadership communication tips, check out https://www.thecommunicativeleader.com/
Today on the Communicative Leader, I'm excited to bring you the Chintan Project, which is Amit and Dr Kumar. So, the Chintan Project, they aim to empower businesses, ceos and discovering a larger purpose and leveraging unique strengths, and they're all about positivity, my friends. Really unique in all of this wisdom that you're going to hear over this conversation is that Amit, who has autism, he communicates using a laminated card, while Dr Kumar, who is his father, reads his words. So you're going to hear some tapping in the background. And that, my friends, that is innovation and flexibility and leadership and action.
Dr. Leah OH:Let's dive in. Hello and welcome to the Communicative Leader, hosted by, me, Dr. Leah Omilion-Hodges. My friends call me Dr OH. I'm a professor of communication and a leadership communication expert. On the Communicative Leader, we're working to make your work life what you want it to be. I'm the communicative leader. We're working to make your work life what you want it to be.
Dr. Leah OH:So, Amit, Dr Kumar, thank you so much for sharing your time and your energy and your expertise with us today. I'm really excited to have you on the communicative leader and, before we dive in, you know we have a really interesting and novel way of communicating and this is something that I love, as someone with you know a lot of years invested in communication. Maybe you can kind of walk us through, before we even dive into questions, what communication looks like for you.
Amit:So thank you very much for having us, leah.
Amit:Thank you very much, leah. As you can see, I am typing on a card. I have autism that still affects my independent speech. I type on this card and my dad reads what I am saying. Think of it like this I use this card to help me speak, much as some use glasses to help them see. When my dad sounds like a robot, that's him reading what I am saying. When he sounds half human, that's him for himself.
Dr. Leah OH:That is a great team.
Dr. Kumar:Yeah. So this is a 50 cent piece of laminated plastic with the alphabet on it and Amit types, and with this card he has written thousands of pages of manuscript that form the basis of our consultation company. And this is still how he does consultations. I have been practicing my independent speech, so along the way I will likely say some with my own voice too.
Dr. Leah OH:Great, yeah, thank you for sharing that with us and, as we said, we'll have an audience listening in, so we will remind them. And just again, as a communication professional, I work with so many people who have so many challenges with communicating and I appreciate you being so innovative and forthcoming with your approach to communicating, so thank you for that.
Amit:Thank you, thank you.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, so, as we're, you know, we're going to talk about the amazing work that you do in organizations and before we do that, I was hoping you could share a little bit about your background and how you. You know you both came to specialize in human behavior advising for businesses and their leaders.
Amit:Well, I had autism and severe developmental delay. My speech was the least my concerns at a time when most kids just cry. But I knew there were challenges and to help me navigate the maze that was autism, I started studying what it was that made us humans tick. How did we accomplish anything? How did we achieve? It was a hunger that led me to learn as I did Initially, true observation.
Amit:Then, along the way, fairly early on in Amit's life, we, the same place that we learned to use this card. They actually taught my wife and I to teach Amit to read. As soon as he learned to read, his world changed and he's read over 14,000 books by some of the greatest people who have ever lived, and there's written material and that, along with his own ideas, are what formed the basis initially of the consultation company. So I had exceptional mentors along the way too. The way to One of them, mr Bill Bartman, was teaching personal development and business. My parents signed up to learn from him but had nowhere to leave me, no one who could take care of this squawky kid. I was four at the time and so we wanted Bill that if he would let Amit attend, if he so much as squawked we would leave the room. So I didn't squawk. I studied everything he said and everything he didn't say but meant to, because of the levers to move the world. My parents had already taught me that learning was another tool to move the world.
Dr. Leah OH:That is incredible. To move the world. That is incredible. So, as a, I have a four-year-old and he's pretty, he's pretty good, but I imagine it'd be some squawking and asking for treats and snacks. But I love the astuteness and recognizing the learning and absences, because a lot of people even have a hard time unpacking what is said and what that means and how to apply it. And it is such a higher level of thinking and you can also say what's missing here and maybe why, and using that as an opportunity for learning. How incredible. And, dr Kumar, I know that you're a trained physician and now you're working, you're doing all of this incredible consulting. Can you talk to us a little bit about kind of that transition and how that came about?
Amit:Absolutely, thank you. So this started as a kid growing up in Guyana in South America, when my friends have reminded me that I was a little problem solver since I was a kid, and particularly a people problem solver. So what would happen is that I'd come up with ways of trying to solve problems, and I was doing that since I was a little kid and then, in a strange series of coincidences or gifts, I followed my initial love into medicine and, yes, I do practice. I've seen over 70,000 unique patients, wow, and each of them has taught me something. I've had the same.
Amit:What Amit talks about and what you have mentioned, leah, is in the in what's missing here, what don't I yet know right, there's a certain humility that goes into every interaction that if we take that humility into that interaction, it is almost certainly going to yield more to us. And I've taken that humility into my interaction with patients, and so I've had, you know, at least 70,000 unique teachers, because each of them comes in with a symptom but has got some underlying need that they're seeking to achieve in their life and in business. The business owners are seeking to fill that need for customers, and we will likely talk more about customers later on. But I dare say the business owners are trying to fill a need, a void for themselves. Each of us has a void, a hole that we are trying to fill in our own lives In some way. This void is what drives our purpose, our reason for being. That is the North Star, that is pulling us. That is what keeps us going when the going gets rough, isn't it?
Dr. Leah OH:Yes, truer words were not spoken and I think, too, helping people to name that and to figure out what those needs are, and that we think maybe it's filled and we recognize that it can shift and it changes in different seasons and it changes in different seasons. And I love that you're bringing this philosophy to organizations because I think, historically, many of them have been pretty cold, looking at things as looking at them as problems without people, and we know that organizations are composed of people. And I love that you're bringing this philosophy because it's highlighting that this is a collection of individuals with needs.
Amit:We told someone once you know that phrase it's not personal, it's just business. What a crock. It's always personal, isn't it?
Dr. Leah OH:it's always personal, isn't it? Because the business is a reflection of the people. A hundred percent, a hundred percent.
Amit:I absolutely love that, hopefully crock is a politically correct term. On your esteemed podcast yes, yes, thank you.
Dr. Leah OH:I Thank you. You know it might be one I'm going to have to start using more. So we've seen some of your unique perspectives already and we've kind of heard about this, but I'm wondering too how each of you maybe every day, or if you're taking time to reflect, but kind of leaning into your perspective as someone with autism and as a physician how you're capitalizing on those strengths to help you.
Amit:That has worked well for us and I dare. Most of the world will not retain us as advisors. Most of the world will not sell their businesses to us, and yet we agitate over that.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, what a thoughtful response, and recognizing too that it's not necessarily saying something about you, but it's saying something about the organization and those at that decision-making table.
Amit:And particularly with regard to autism. I once told an editor who was interviewing me that I would be disgusted if I got a contract or an acquisition because I had autism. Poor lady, she was horrified as I didn't know it at the time, but the issue was around diversity and inclusion, so I think he tolerated me for the rest of the interview oh, that's so funny.
Dr. Leah OH:Oh, I love that. I did that's not she'll forget.
Amit:We weren't politically correct.
Dr. Leah OH:Love it. I love bringing in that color and personality to thinking about working in organizations and because I think for so long people felt they had to strip their personality at the door and leave it, and that's just not how humans work, right.
Amit:No, I think, the stripping away of our package to be front-facing. So I think on that point, as in most, there are at least two sides to a story. Yet I would propose that this idea that we are all in the same boat has advantages and and disadvantages. Advantages because it opens our eyes to look at the world as others might, and disadvantages because we fail to see or can fail to see that challenges are unique for each of us. So COVID didn't affect each of us. The same Supply chain doesn't affect each of us the same. Tiktok being banned or not doesn't affect each of us the same.
Amit:We had an interesting discussion with somebody when they were tariffs with China and he was saying you know it disrupted his entire business. We said so how are you setting yourself apart in your positioning? How are you presenting that to the market? And he said oh, you know what? All of us. He manufactured organic vitamins. He said so how are you setting yourself apart? And you know he couldn't get to that. We kept going back to we were all in the same boat. Back to we're all in the same boat.
Amit:And our proposal was that you might have similar supply issues, but your response can differentiate you. So initially they did not retain us and then, you know, about eight months later, they contacted us back because they were still dealing with supply chain issues, because everybody was in the same boat. We said to him how about you explicitly state that you refuse to compromise the quality of your product because of supply chain? He said how does that look in the marketplace? I said how does that look in the marketplace? He decided that it was worth it to redefine his and his company's position and he and his team saw that inflection point that is only so often talked about in sales and profits and all of us is a perspective change. Yeah, you've got this problem, but how are you going to differentiate yourself in the marketplace? Does?
Dr. Leah OH:that make sense? Yes, yeah, I was just thinking. You know, some boats sink and some float. Yeah, you know, we're not all in the same one.
Amit:That's right.
Dr. Leah OH:Excellent. So we've touched on some of these misconceptions already, so I'm wondering what are some other stigmas or maybe points of pressure that have you've encountered in the business world regarding autism and you know what does that look like. How do you work to address those or overcome them or sidestep them?
Amit:That is more challenging to answer than might at first appear, partly because I am absolutely certain that some will not engage with us as a result and, as we said, we think that's okay. I am not sure. In some ways I am confident of the opposite, that I suck as an ambassador of people with autism, because I don't fight for that inclusion. I state how I can serve. I am humble to serve, I am hungry to serve. Then I leave it alone, I get on with doing the work.
Dr. Leah OH:And I would say you're doing it in action. Indeed, many people just pay it lip service and you're representing. You know you're doing like you said. You're doing the work.
Dr. Kumar:Yeah.
Dr. Leah OH:So now I'm thinking about capitalizing on strengths, and between you you have so, so many strengths, so I'm wondering how you kind of harness who you are individuals, how you are as this partnership to help businesses identify and capitalize on their own unique strengths.
Amit:Well when we were. Sometimes the marketplace actually allows you to define who you are, and we think that's okay. And so initially, as we were working with individuals, it became progressively more clear that who we were able to most adequately serve were owners of businesses. And then, because we run our businesses largely as a family group, you know many people who were retaining us actually controlled family entities. So, as an example of how this works, we had let's call her Juanita a matriarch of a family office for all practical purposes, and they were modeling their family's financial legacy in what they thought was the legacy of the Rockefellers and Rothschilds, etc. You know that idea that you contribute in order to be part of the fruit. And one of you know, sometimes when you try and model your life after someone else, it gets very hard because each of us is unique, right.
Dr. Leah OH:It doesn't fit.
Amit:And so, in the process of modeling, one of the pieces that was being missed was that they were looking to stuff the family members who wanted a piece of the money pie into their current operations. Does that make sense, right? So they were doing real estate and transportation.
Amit:That was how they had grown generational wealth, and that meant a lot a lot of square pegs into round holes and there was one particular family group within that that was super inspired to develop a winery business and they just could not see how this would fit into their organization and they kept giving them roles and board positions, you know, and some real estate acquisition or some building of you know communities, and it wasn't working. So in the course of one of our half-day workshops with them so for intensive work sometimes rather than just brief conversations we'd block off a half-day we helped them see how a winery could be critical to their positioning and help the winery group figure out how the family's real estate ventures and capital raising ventures was going to be helpful to them. Basically, we had them drooling to be in the room with each other. It's been, I think it's about four years and they now run one of the larger winery operations in their country. Wow, in the course of four yearsery operations in their country.
Amit:Wow, in the course of four years. Yeah, that's incredible. So it takes several years before when you plant a grape for it to work, so clearly they were acquiring businesses, not just starting to plant from grape seed, plant from grapeseed. And yet, because they were able to leverage the unique strengths of the people already on their team, they now, all by itself, have an arm of their business worthy enough to grow generational wealth wow, and that that goes, just your angry business.
Amit:I mean like that you could sell a thing right now for enough there, I don't yep I don't think they they young gentleman and his wife are going to sell that piece, but they can see now how it all fits together and you know, it's a little bit like the acres of diamonds in a way. Right, like it's already there, yeah, but we fail to harness the strengths. Does that answer?
Dr. Leah OH:Yes the strengths. Does that answer yes? Yes, I'm thinking about the kind of incredible bridging function that you're serving and kind of interpreting as well and saying you're talking at each other, you're not really listening, not really hearing one another, and you're able to do it in a way that satisfied everyone's goals. I mean, imagine, beyond what they even expected.
Amit:For families. After the initial few minutes they rapidly realize that we have so many kinks in our own armor that they are more amenable to sharing their challenges. In some of the more conventional businesses, secrets are more carefully guarded, and we had another client say something to us that we now use in our own marketing. He said you guys are like SEAL Team 6. Under the cover of darkness do the work, then leave before anyone knows you are here. I can't tell you how many times we've gotten flown out to meet with people from a Friday night until Saturday afternoon or Sunday and the board doesn't know we are there. Sometimes the other partner doesn't know we are there. We go in. Partner doesn't know we're there. We go in sort it out.
Amit:Then we're out of there and they get to take the credit. It's great for the stories, bad for testimonials because, like you, can never tell one story yeah, still team six, they start for testimonials, because the work is done in secret.
Dr. Leah OH:Gosh, that is really really incredible.
Amit:You get to air your skills on a podcast. Yeah, you got to hide those stories in the background.
Amit:Yeah, yeah, oh, that is incredible, they say when there is blood in the water, the sharks come out, and for many businesses, particularly around the time of sale, that is an enormous stress for the individuals for whom this business is their baby, so it is very stressful, and navigating the people's stuff in that process is so critical to helping the owners get what they deserve for this baby into whom they have invested so much internal and external resources.
Dr. Leah OH:Yes, and I think so often. We think, oh, I have a lawyer or I have an accountant, so these things should be set, but we forget that that's just one tiny part of it and often the lowest sources of stress the people part, like you're saying is we're really sweating and we're really unclear and uncertain.
Amit:You know when we are done having our conversation with you. Today we are talking with sellers. We're in the process of buying that family's business and they asked us what all of our big plans were as we take over the business. And it might seem like such an appropriate question because they're going to help us with the transition. But if you think of it, the traditional venture capital firms private equity comes in and buys businesses and has their grand plans of how they will reorganize and reform the business, have a pretty sucky track record because their integration after the sale is based on someone leaving their ship and climbing on to the new owners. And you know, leah, in a conversation it helps to meet the order where they are are and our group's rate of fulfilling integrations, we think has a lot to do with honoring the people involved in these transitions.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, I love that you even use the word honoring, because I think that so many see it just as a transaction, so there's no place for honor. But that again is so backwards in my mind because of what the people have brought to. I mean, if they have created an organization that someone else is interested in purchasing and continuing, I mean obviously there is there are strengths there. Yeah, yeah.
Amit:And the value is only partly in the SOPs.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, yes, so true. And so my next question and this is when you've kind of already touched on, so I'm wondering if maybe we lean into the business leader aspect of it. But how do you approach coaching and advising these leaders, you know, to help them be in a position to successfully navigate? You know complexities of human behavior and relationships.
Amit:So If you think of it, people hire consultants, you know, in a typical sense for one of a couple of reasons right, they want something that they don't think they can achieve on their own or fast enough, or without you know, or they think they can save you money, time or get some outcome that they couldn't otherwise get. Right, and as we begin our working with, we work hard to get a sense of what their perception is of the problem, the challenge, and it is striking to us how grandiose plans can be built and set to work upon when there really isn't a challenge of consequence to the business. So you know what is the problem. And then why is that a problem, pia? And what would it mean to your business if it were solved? And what would it mean to your business if it were not solved?
Amit:And we have talked here about humility Sometimes. Sometimes one of our biggest challenges is encouraging our client or acquisition prospect to be humble to the answers that they already know but have failed to acknowledge, have failed to acknowledge. You know, as we thought of who you know, would you do the cocktail party thing that sends so many hiding under the tables, right? So what do you do? And then we've decided that you know, we are much more in that consultation work, much more of advisors, at being towards a vision, your vision, as opposed to telling you the answers right. Yeah, we've worked in all kinds of industries so, yes, we've seen a lot of different solutions work, but those solutions are only of value to you if they help you fill a hole that you perceive is there right.
Amit:And so this match of the challenge and the opportunity, this match between the problem and the solution, is usually one of the bigger pieces of the eventual fix, the eventual fulfillment, than is the fanciness of the proposal. Does that make sense? It's sorting through that match where, we have learned, lies so much of the value. And, interestingly, one of the places where that match is required to be sorted out is actually the match between the employer and the employee, isn't it Like that's actually?
Amit:one of the more important pieces of matches to sort out. I mean, we can go back, if you like, to some of the challenges that business owners might have, but but it might be helpful for your audience to talk about that match with the employee too, because we think that many businesses don't recognize that the employee is also a customer. Yes, yes, and so a guy named Keith Cunningham taught us and we're going to mess up Keith's words, but the concept hopefully we can adequately communicate. But he said that you know, in the process of you operating your business, you do a couple of things. One is that you make what you do matter to them. So make what you do matter to them. And then, secondly, make matter to them what you do Right. So make what you do matter to them and then make what matters to them what you do. And we think both pieces are doing for the external customer and for the internal customer. It's easy for them and for the business to lose its way.
Dr. Leah OH:Exactly, I wrote a paper on that before about internal brand ambassadors. Exactly, I wrote a paper on that before about internal brand ambassadors. And if someone comes to me and I say, nope, don't go to my university, it doesn't matter how many marketing dollars they spend yeah, because someone's going to ask me and I'm going to share that information, but for the record, I would send my children to my university. There be, you know, no confusion, but the way it illustrates the importance of that.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, exactly, and so let's look at inclusion now, and I imagine this is something that you're asked about. Maybe, if not explicitly, it's kind of implied. But, as experts in human behavior, what advice do you have for companies who are looking to foster more inclusive or diverse work environment?
Amit:As we said earlier, we might be the wrong people to ask for this. Find the best individual for the job and work your darn best to help them see that what you do matters and that they are important to you and and what it is that's the best. Individual is going to take many different flavors, and I look in our own businesses. We've hired companies we have acquired others that we've advised, and sometimes who they have hired evolves over time as they take their own blinders off right. Yeah, but it is finding the best candidate, I think.
Dr. Kumar:Mm-hmm.
Amit:And that is For some jobs I wouldn't be appropriate. I had to change for now my idea of delivering e-notes in a conventional fashion. Instead, fireside chats have worked exceptionally even without the firesides.
Dr. Leah OH:And that is such a perfect response and I love that. I want to raise up when you talk about, you know, really giving people their praise for what they do, because I think that's so often. We get people there and then we just kind of leave them alone unless they make a mistake and then we call a lot of attention to it, but a lot of times we don't praise all of the good they're doing. And I know that in your philosophy you do a lot of supporting and helping organizations to empower people to reach their potential. So I'm wondering, if you can you know through your experience, you know how do you recommend? What can organizations do? What can leaders do to empower their employees so they're positioned to kind of reach their fullest potential?
Amit:Peter Drucker, of management fame, said you can't manage people until you can manage your own emotions manage your own emotions. Then he said something else, and that is in order to manage people, you, the leader, must be able to praise and reprimand equally. So here's our take on that. So many leaders are themselves so uncomfortable with reprimand that they wait until something explodes before they give feedback, or at other times they run down a waterfall from a trickle, because of course, the world may end as a result of that miscalculation.
Dr. Leah OH:Naturally.
Amit:So a lot of the responsibility for managing these relationships is managing our own emotions.
Dr. Leah OH:emotions and I do think that if you were to attempt to teach your four year old, how is it? A little boy, little girl, what?
Amit:is it, yeah, the four-year-old how to brush his own teeth? Only by saying no when something was done incorrectly, the statistical likelihood of low dental bills it's pretty infinitesimal, doesn't it? Yes, and so much of our workplace is that way. Yes, and we laugh, and we laugh. There is comedy on in what a four-year-old might do with a toothbrush and where they might choose to put it. Yep, in there. And that comedy hides the tragedy of how so many conduct their employee relations.
Dr. Leah OH:Exactly that reminds me I had a colleague when I worked in industry who said she might as well just call me no, because essentially that she was always reprimanded, always told no, Her ideas were shut down by the manager. And I just thought, oh, oh man, for someone to identify that as part of their identity and again said in joke and under her breath, but there's always truth to that.
Dr. Leah OH:It's like oh yeah, so we've shared some success stories. We have the last couple of questions. I'm wondering if there's another success story. We've talked about this thriving winery in such a short period, but of other businesses or leaders that you've worked with that have you know that stand out in your mind that they've taken a challenge and turned it into a really beautiful opportunity.
Amit:So I'm thinking of, let's say, andrew. So he is prepping a business for sale. They have proprietary technology in the oil industry and as they prep for sale, his concept is that the best way he can maximize their dollar exit is by growing their top line and bottom line revenues. So that would be standard acquisition wisdom. Right? Like you know, in these last couple of years, man, you've got to turn it up, earn more and net more. So in this process they realigned their incentive packages to reflect that. Because that's what management consultants tell you to do, right, you reward people for behavior. In fact lots of management stuff says that that's how you do it. So your lead software engineer decided there was a lot more upside to him by going into sales and marketing. Internal ambassador he definitely was, because he loved their business. Sales he sucked. The company still grew, but the tensions within it grew also.
Amit:There was that blood in the water that we talked about us in and we recognized the fingerprints of traditional management consulting all over their operations and we helped them see that their exit value had more to do with the value to the acquirer than to the dollars on the bottom line. Does that make sense, right? It had more to do with what this meant to the company that was them than it did to their profits, and so we helped them focus on what is called a strategic buyer rather than a dollar-based sale. As soon as they got that, the software engineer could go back to what he loved. I'm just thinking of.
Amit:Match released him and he now was working to show how their product could help so many others in that sector of the oil business. Within a few months they had competing bids for their company at multiples. That would typically only be achieved with an IPO, like a national public offering market. Yeah, so they were paid vastly more than they were even considering, and the previous principals and the software engineer now all have retained equity in the new company and, interestingly, it's been about a year the guys who were the principals initially have hashed out and software engineer is still driving in the new operation, because he got to do what he loved in the old company.
Amit:Then now in the new company they saw his value, so he is thriving. He's got more options. In fact, the old principals exited because they were upset that the software engineer had more options now than they initially got for their sale. Oh, that's funny, yeah, because he was bringing continuing value to their organization right.
Dr. Leah OH:And it goes back to when you're talking about the importance of fit and match and changing. You know the type of buyer they're looking at and considering how the values of the organization and the people in certain roles, and we see when we have that in alignment it's so much better in every way that we slice it.
Amit:In some ways, I think I should run a dating or matchmaking app.
Dr. Kumar:Yep.
Dr. Leah OH:Yep, I can imagine you would be very successful.
Amit:I have two final questions for both of you. I would even win a date myself, Leah.
Dr. Leah OH:Oh, that's so funny, all about fit right. So these two final questions, they go hand in hand and it's the way we end all episodes of the Communicative Leader. And I like to leave our listeners with pragmatic, whether it's a tip, a challenge or advice. So first for our titled leaders out there, our managers, with pragmatic, whether it's a tip, a challenge or advice. So first for our titled leaders out there, our managers, directors, folks who have that decision-making power, and then you know advice that you would offer to any employee, any rank, across any industry.
Amit:So, for the titled leaders, most of our experience by far is with owners or controlling interest people.
Dr. Kumar:So if it's, okay with you.
Amit:We just do what we do for them, of course. And so, for the titled leaders, we'd say the following Do what it takes to love your business again, or exit your business, so you can love your life again. So do what it takes to love your business again, or exit your business so you can love your life again.
Dr. Leah OH:So do what it takes to love your business again or exit your business.
Amit:So you can love your life again. That is powerful. Yeah, I'm hard pressed to see how it's worked otherwise. Running a business is challenging work. To do something that is not inspiring to you, that is not energizing to you rather than energy draining to you, is, man, that's got to be rough. Does that make sense?
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, oh yeah. I love that suggestion and, anyway, bringing that passion, and I always think of the role modeling aspect of leadership. So if you're dragging day in and day out, what is that saying to employees, to your customers, you know? So I like that Do what it takes to love it or go back to finding love in life yeah.
Amit:And for every employee I would say the following Know thyself, and here's what I mean by that. Know what is important to you, what matters to you. Until you know that for yourself, the world will project onto you what it thinks that should be. When you know what is important to you, do the work to figure out how it is. Whatever it is that you choose to invest your life in. How is that helping you get what it is that you most value?
Amit:I wish we could say that the employer, that the business, will do that work for you. Yeah, but our experience is that they will not. No, so it is an individual responsibility to know what it is that's truly important to you and then to figure out how it is that whatever you choose, however you choose to invest your life, how it's getting you what it is that you want is always a match to be found. Sometimes it's too much work to figure it out, so we leave. That's okay. But as you stay or as you leave, know in your heart that you are doing it for you and what matters to you.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, and that's really helpful. It echoes both of your advice and this idea that it might mean leaving. It might not be staying, and I think so many people don't consider that until it's so far there. You know, they've exhausted all of their resources. They've stayed way too long because they felt like they should and a lot of times, if the fit's not there, it doesn't matter how much work we put in. Yeah, you know, that puzzle piece is just not going to fit. Yeah, thank you. I want to thank both of you again for sharing your time, your expertise. I have learned so much today from both of you. I've truly enjoyed this conversation and thank you again for being on the communicative leader.
Amit:Thank you very much for having us, Leah.
Dr. Kumar:Thank you. Take care Bye now you, thank you, all right, my friends, that wraps up our conversation today.
Dr. Leah OH:Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose. I'm looking forward to chatting with you again soon on the Communicative Leader tip leader.
