The Communicative Leader
On The Communicative Leader, we're making your work life what you want it to be. Do you need years of training or special equipment? Not at all my friends. Simple, yet thoughtful changes in your communication can make great strides in displaying your leadership ability. And why the heck should you care about leadership communication? Well, communication is the yardstick others use to determine whether or not they see you as a leader. Ahhh don't be scared, I got you. We will walk through common organizational obstacles and chat about small, but meaningful communication-rooted changes you can integrate immediately. No more waiting for the workplace to become what you hope it will. Nope. You, my friends, will be empowered and equipped to make those changes. Let's have some fun! Can't get enough?
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The Communicative Leader
Begin with We: A Conversation with Kyle McDowell
Kyle McDowell shares his 10 principles for building and sustaining a culture of excellence. Kyle highlights the need for leaders to lead by example and measure themselves by outcomes rather than activity.
We discuss the importance of authenticity and fostering a culture of excellence in the workplace. They emphasize the role of leaders in setting an example and creating an environment where employees can thrive.
Some other takeaways:
- Leaders should challenge each other and embrace challenges grounded in data or experience.
- Leaders should lead by example and measure themselves by outcomes rather than activity.
- Measuring excellence within an organization can be done through employee engagement, attrition rates, and personal and professional goal alignment. Authenticity is key in fostering a culture of excellence in the workplace.
- Leaders play a crucial role in setting an example and creating an environment where employees can thrive.
Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose.
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Today on the Communicative Leader, we welcome Kyle McDowell. Kyle walks us through his 10 principles for building and sustaining a culture of excellence and in this, my friend, he emphasizes the importance of leaders feeling comfortable, challenging and engaging with others and, at the same time, he highlights the need for leaders to lead by example we know that I love this one and also to measure themselves by outcomes rather than sheer activity. Let's dive in. Hello and welcome to the Communicative Leader hosted me, DHodges. My friends call me Dr O. I'm a professor of communication and a leadership communication expert. I'm the communicative leader. We're working to make your work life what you want it to be. So, kyle, thank you for being with us today. On the communicative leader, and before we dive in, I was hoping you could share a little bit about your background. What inspired you specifically to write Begin With we 10 Principles for Building and Sustaining a Culture of Excellence.
Kyle McDowell:Yeah, you bet Leah Really really happy to do so and, by the way, thank you for having me today. I've been looking forward to joining you and you're just doing really important work and I'm glad to be a part of that. So thank you. And just for context sake, so my background I spent nearly 30 years in corporate America leading really, really big organizations. As a matter of fact, my last two roles combined, I led north of 30,000 employees, worked for three fortune 10 firms, and I've always kind of been a student of leadership in a really nerdy way actually.
Dr. Leah OH:I love it.
Kyle McDowell:Right.
Dr. Leah OH:In the right place. I guess Yep, yep.
Kyle McDowell:And if that is a true statement, I felt like I was forced into this position, almost where I needed to write the book to get a couple of decades of experiences documented and, more importantly, the epiphany moment that I was really fortunate to have at around year 23, 24 of my run in corporate America which, long story short, I won't spend too much time in it, but with each passing year and I don't think I much time in it but with each passing year and I don't think I'm alone in this but with each passing year, I felt myself becoming more and more apathetic and disenfranchised with the whole engine, which is ironic because at those stages, at that point of my career, I was creating environments, I was creating cultures, and I just began to be so disconnected to the environments that I actually was helping create, until I realized there had to be something more.
Kyle McDowell:And I took a role in 2017 that required me to lead a $7 billion program, about 14,000 employees, 11 locations, and I just knew that I needed to do something different, if I wanted to feel differently, reconnect with the passion and purpose that I once had that so many of us kind of seem to lose throughout our careers, that I needed to do something different, and that epiphany moment is what really compelled me to put together these 10 principles, called the 10 wheeze. They are the foundation of the book that you mentioned that's become a USA Today and Wall Street Journal bestseller, and I guess all of that is what brings us together here today.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, excellent. And so about your book.
Kyle McDowell:It is centered on these 10 guiding principles, and I was wondering if you could share a couple of these with us, maybe those that give us this nice on-ramp to help us understand what we can do to impact positive change at work give this caveat because, as I share some of the principles, the 10 wheeze whether it's just a couple or all of them, invariably there's someone in the audience that's like, well, yeah, no, kidding Kyle, those are obvious, but I think, especially in corporate life, simple does not mean easy. So, while they're very simple and there's no rocket science and nothing really new here, what I have found, though, is when we are conspicuous about stating our principles in terms of behavior, how we treat one another, our guide rules or our guideposts for what's acceptable, how we hold each other accountable really a code of behavior which I think is missing in most organizations. A lot of companies go to great lengths to teach us how to do the job, but I don't think a lot of organizations spend even close to the same amount of time on setting expectations for how we treat one another from a behavioral perspective. So the 10 wheeze are just guiding principles, and I was very quick to introduce this to my team back in 2017 by saying these are the rules that govern how we treat each other, first and foremost, and then they become the same kind of guide rules for how we treat those we serve externally, because, dr Lee, as you know probably as well, if not better, than, anybody.
Kyle McDowell:A high functioning team behind the curtain is almost always a requirement to do so and be high functioning externally. So we got to start there. So, with no particular emphasis on one or other, any of the other 10 we's, I'll just, I'll jump right into my favorite and that's. We number eight and that's. We challenge each other, and it is that principle is one of the tougher ones for organizations and more specifically leaders, to grasp, simply because it requires a check of our ego. Let's face it historically, throughout the history of business, challenges have almost always been reserved for the boss to team members or boss to next layer boss. But rarely is it not just a nice to have but an actual obligation to have. Challenges come from peer to peer, team member to leader, leader to leader, basically every direction. I believe high functioning organizations have challenge as a fundamental component of their existence, and I happen to. By the way, I should also mention challenges must be grounded in either data or experience, otherwise they're just your opinions and opinions.
Kyle McDowell:We all have those, right and there's a really crass follow on statement to that, but I'll leave it out. But once we can get the boss which is different than a leader but once we get the person in charge comfortable with not being right all the time, comfortable with having other opinions on the table, comfortable with pushback boy, the gates really open up for process improvement and progress. What I saw when I first introduced this and I've seen it in countless organizations since I've written the book is it turns staff meetings, for example, from just readouts into real conversations, because everyone in the room knows they are obligated to voice up an opinion. But again, grounded in data or experience, to say, man, we might be heading down the wrong path. And here's my experience why.
Kyle McDowell:I just think it gets all the right questions asked and ultimately the best answer wins almost in a meritocracy of ways.
Dr. Leah OH:That's my favorite. I love that yeah.
Kyle McDowell:I rarely share that principle without the follow-on principle, which is we number nine and that's we embrace challenge, because one without the other, is chaos. And we want our teams to be open and understand that life is ripe with challenges. So we can either accept these challenges and get better from them or we can cower and get lapped and replaced by the competition. So I think those are two really important ones of all the 10.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, and I was smiling when you were saying that. I was thinking, actually it's my first PhD class and we were peppering the professor with questions because we were pain in the ass new first year PhDs and eventually he was like, well, if I didn't know, I would tell you I didn't know and I don't know. For all of us like collective mind blowing, because you're so used to the person at the front of the room or the boss always appearing to have all the answers, and it was so freeing to have someone say I don't know, I'm going to go to the research and I'll circle back and I like that. You know. It tied into challenge each other for me and this idea that, yes, I have a lot of expertise, but I am not the only one with expertise and I don't have what you have and you don't have what I have. So that's right.
Kyle McDowell:That's right. It really is. It's what I've found. So my the first 20 plus years of my career, I'm not proud of my approach to leadership. I was kind of a bang my fist on the desk type leader or boss. You know. Results mattered more than how we got them. Doing the right thing was nice to have, but not always essential.
Kyle McDowell:And what I found was the less I focus on my own accolades and opportunity and my sphere of influence, the less I focus and use that energy and invest that time and energy into those I lead. And that involves checking that ego, man and being comfortable being wrong and being comfortable saying I just don't know. But what do you think? It was a real transformation for me and the outcomes that I was able to deliver and that our teams were able to deliver were exponentially better in terms of results, but also much more fulfilling man. It's a lot more fun to lead that way. It took me a long time to find it.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, yeah. Well, that's so neat. And so, speaking of challenges, my next question I'm wondering you know, with all the work you do in organizations, and maybe even drawing from your previous work, what are some of those common challenges and obstacles that you see leaders face when they're trying to build this culture of excellence?
Kyle McDowell:You know I love that question and it takes me to another one of the principles because I think, well, I know this principle. I wrote this principle to address one of the most common ailments and it's perpetuated at all levels in almost all organizations, and that's this fascination with activity and outcomes. So I have a principle within the 10 we's, that is, we measure ourselves by outcomes over activity. It's actually we number seven, because I'd love to get your take on this we wear our calendars almost like a badge of honor. I'm double booked, I'm triple booked. I had 13 meetings yesterday and I used to be kind of head of the line, conflating my busyness with actual impact, and come to find out I was really mistaken. And I think where I see this most common is in the middle to upper layers of management, setting an example that we measure ourselves by our activity and not the outcome. So I turn that whole paradigm on its ear and I say if you can't draw a straight line from an activity in which you're engaged, let's look at our calendars. If I can't draw a straight line from any one of those meetings to an outcome or series of outcomes that I've been assigned, then I should question it. It should be scrutinized.
Kyle McDowell:I mean, I put this quote or this statistic in the book, and it was a study by Korn Ferry a number of years ago that said 35% of respondents would still attend a meeting even if they knew it would not advance their charter. You know their responsibilities, so, and I and I and I deal with this a lot in my executive coaching and and you'd be surprised, man, how many very senior executives at really big firms they conflate the two and they and they'll say, man, I was so busy yesterday or I was triple booked, I don't have time to even think some days. Okay, great, and that may be legitimate. But let's actually flip the laptop open and look at your calendar, and that's on the other side of the ledger. Let's have some major responsibilities or accomplishments that you've been assigned that you are chasing this quarter or this year, and if we can't draw lines, man, then we should really question how you're spending that time.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, I couldn't agree more and I think so much of that is an antiquated approach to business that we're still moving away from, but many are entrenched in it because it is this tangible, where people can see and we think that is then equated with value and, like you're saying, nope, it's equated with, you know, and sometimes wasting your time getting behind on other priorities and other things that you could actually be making a tangible difference in.
Kyle McDowell:You know, my favorite example of this is Uber and I have to tell you, man, I am really, really happy that my Uber driver put gasoline in the tank before they picked me up, but I'm happier that they got me from A to B, that gas, that stop at the gas station is an activity that is required to deliver an ultimate outcome. I mean, I guess said differently and sometimes I get a little, I get in trouble for this but we should measure ourselves by the money, and I don't mean actual transfer of goods for dollars. I mean, if you put your client hat on, would they be excited that you spent your time in 13 meetings yesterday? If you can't point to how their relationship or the product or service they're consuming is better for your efforts? Matter of fact, they would want to know what the hell were you doing all day yesterday in these meetings. That didn't help meet my cause at all. So activity is very, very important, but only when it's connected to an outcome that we've been assigned.
Dr. Leah OH:Yep, couldn't agree with you more, and actually that's a perfect segue. So my next question I'm thinking about measurement. I'm thinking about kind of, how do you define and then measure excellence within a culture or an organization? What does that look like?
Kyle McDowell:Yeah, it's different for every organization and, depending on where the organization is, kind of on their cultural evolution, it has to start with just simply quantifying things like employee engagement.
Kyle McDowell:I love doing employee engagement, employee satisfaction surveys, understanding there's a degree of bias in there and, depending on how confidential you can assure the respondents that it will be right, there's some issues there. So I'm not naive to that. But we have to have a baseline and in the absence of something like that, I always look at things like attrition how long positions have remained open? Are we having a tough time recruiting really solid candidates and talented folks to join the team? And then there's no substitution for really just spending time with people. So, focus groups, whether it be skip level, one-on-ones, but just making sure that, regardless of how senior you are, how important you think, you are engaging with those that actually do the work, those that are connected to the customers that we serve. So any number of approaches, but establishing some kind of baseline, something that we can kind of control and guard against, and then, as we start to implement these principles being really outspoken and overt, like they got to be part of our daily vernacular, we use them in our one-on-ones.
Kyle McDowell:a lot, of, a lot of companies I work with have now started to insert them in their performance appraisals. So we have a baseline. We have a different way of doing things by inserting the 10 wheeze into our lives, and let's continue to measure those same, measure those same objectives and compare versus that baseline to quantify progress. I mean, at the end of the day, a culture of excellence. I've defined it as an environment that's rich in collaboration, but also where employees and leaders can operate alike without fear. But, most importantly, it allows an alignment on personal, professional and corporate goals. And when I say that people are like, well, why are my personal goals factored in there? Because, as a leader, if I can connect with you on what motivates you in and outside of work, and I understand what motivates you inside and outside of work, I can do my best to combine those two things so you have the greatest experience possible.
Kyle McDowell:For example, if I'm leading a team that is largely remote, or maybe even a hundred percent remote, you know I can be difficult and say you need to be at a home office or you need to be, you know, in a quiet space with a laptop door shut, or I can say I don't care if you work from the beach, as long as your results are there and we're delivering on the things, that our expectations are aligned, I, I, I, I, just I just don't care.
Kyle McDowell:So that you know. And if I, if I know someone says, hey, I need, I want to go work with um, I want to go spend time with my grandkids next month, so I'm going to be in a different location, do it. But if I'm not aligning on those personal goals and we haven't had that conversation, that team member might be reticent to even share that's a desire or a hope that they have. But if I reach out and say, hey, what do you need, what can I do to make your life, your job, your responsibilities inside of this team more impactful and fulfilling and that's a true story.
Kyle McDowell:That happened to me once I went around the room asking team members you know, what do you need outside of work to make your work life more impactful? And I had an employee say, well, I want to spend more time with my grandkids. I said, so, do it, so, do it, so, anyway, that's I think that's a long-winded way of saying you know, measuring the, the measuring, or at least attempting to understand people's personal objectives inside of the organization, I think goes a long way in setting our professional and corporate goals and delivering on those.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, 100%, and I think that is such a neat way of embracing the way that organizations are moving and recognizing that we are whole people. We don't chuck parts of ourselves at the door If we're asked to. A lot of people can, but it doesn't necessarily work for a really long time or pan out the way the organization hopes. So and I chose really I want to raise up the point of you know, you have your qualitative data with the focus groups, the quantitative surveys, but then also that importance of having your leaders walk around and talking to people, because the you know the irony is the more decision-making power we have, typically the further away from the work we are.
Dr. Leah OH:And so I really love that connection that you are coaching people to do and to maintain that.
Kyle McDowell:Yeah, I mean thanks for pointing that out, because I think it's often overlooked, and it was my experience.
Kyle McDowell:The more senior I became within any organization, what I found is I lost a bit of intimacy and connection with the client, with those that we serve, unless something was broken. And then, of course, I get engaged and maybe have some kind of mea culpa or meet with a client. But ultimately, the time spent with clients was an exception and I made a conscious decision later in my career to trade those connections with tighter connections with my employees, the members of my team, because they became my clients. So understanding what they need out of this relationship because it's a two-way street allowed me to kind of guide and drive the organization to a place where they felt as if they were heard. I felt as if I had a pretty good pulse check of what our customers were saying and I think there's a really win-win out of that approach. So, yeah, we got to stay connected to those that actually do the work. I know it's hard and it takes more work, but it is the right thing.
Dr. Leah OH:Yep, exactly, and that actually is a really nice lead-in. So I'm thinking about role modeling now and you're talking about how you're doing that and coaching others, but I'm wondering from your perspective, what role do leaders play in modeling and promoting this culture of excellence within their organizations?
Kyle McDowell:So we? Number two is we lead by example, and I think that is clearly not a new statement. It's almost cliche. But I take it a little bit further to say you're already leading by example. Every single day, every interaction, you are already leading by example. The question is not whether or not I am leading by example. The question is am I leading by an example that I want to see replicated? If my behavior were blast all over the company internet or social media, would I be proud?
Kyle McDowell:A filter that I still use is my mother. If my mother were to see how I handled this connection or this conversation or how I led this meeting, would she be proud or embarrassed for me? By the way, my mother's been gone for over a dozen years, but I still think having that check of am I behaving in a way? And, to be really extreme, sometimes I say how would you behave if a documentary film crew were following you? Is this behavior that you would love to see replicated? So it must start with the leaders, because you call it the leadership shadow, whatever clever terminology we want to use. At the end of the day, my behavior sets a standard that I need others to follow, and if I am not making good on my commitments, if I'm showing up late, if I'm behaving in ways that is less than flattering to my own brand as well as our company's brand, that's a license for them to do the same.
Kyle McDowell:So, if I want to transform an organization and I espouse these principles, my team needs to see me living these principles. They need to see me holding myself accountable to these principles. Otherwise they're just words on a wall. So I believe you know it's such a cliche and I think it's overused. But leading by example, it must start there and there's just no substitution for that.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, and then how much we learn too from others and that behavior that's reflected back then. That's right Some of my greatest leadership examples came from bosses.
Kyle McDowell:I loathed because I knew that's not how to treat people.
Dr. Leah OH:I said okay if I'm ever in that position.
Kyle McDowell:I will never behave that way. So there's learning everywhere. Yes, 100%.
Dr. Leah OH:I'm smiling. This made me think. A couple of years ago my daughter comes home and she's like I participated in class and I think she was in first grade then and she's like I knew what a hypocrite was. I told my teacher it's when you know, my brother and I are yelling at each other and then you're yelling at us to stop yelling at each other. I was like, oh cool, cool, cool. I'm glad that's the example you shared. Great, but it was just really helpful to recognize like, yeah, you understand what hypocrite is. Two, how am I helping you and your brother to yell at each other?
Dr. Leah OH:yeah, let us, if I am raising my voice in doing that and it was just such a a funny but eye-opening moment a powerful example.
Kyle McDowell:Yeah, yeah, and recognizing that learning is everywhere, so yeah, I got to tell you, Dr Leah, you can call me a lot of things, but that is one word that I get really fired up about being called a hypocrite and I think if people with any position of authority were to take a similar approach, in that any any, it's worse than any four letter word you could ever call me. Um, and that was a. That was some reconciliation.
Kyle McDowell:I had to do deeper in my career because when we say we want to, to have an impact and be a leader that we never had. That involves you. Uh, it's not a part-time job, right, it's always it's an always on job and it's um, it is, it's something that you sign up for, and then if someone has an opportunity to say that I'm not living that every single day, that's me being a hypocrite, Just boy. That rubs me the wrong way. So I go to great lengths to not give people that opportunity.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, exactly, I had one student one time and they're like I saw you pass a piece of litter and then you backed up and got it. I'm like I remember that and I didn't know anyone was watching, but I literally was walking in my car and I was like Leah, what are you doing? You saw that, go pick it up. And it was. I had goosebumps when the student brought this up. Oh, someone did notice this, but it was just, it was a nice moment to be like. Nope, you know, I even when no one's around.
Dr. Leah OH:I need to choose leadership.
Kyle McDowell:I love that example. If you'll allow me, I have a really quick story that.
Dr. Leah OH:I think will cement that point.
Kyle McDowell:Yeah, please. When I was leading this health I used to lead the Affordable Care Act and 1-800-Medicare enrollment operations where there was 14,000, 15,000 people at peak 11 locations and one of those locations. I would visit, each location one a month. I would bounce around every single month. My leadership team and I we'd do a bunch of focus groups, try to really uncover problems that maybe people were otherwise scared to surface. But anyway, this one location I would visit a lot and for whatever reason, the design was not optimal.
Kyle McDowell:So there's about a thousand employees in this location but there seemed to be a shortage of restrooms.
Kyle McDowell:So one of the main restrooms just had a lot of traffic and invariably every time I would visit this location, use this restroom, the basin where you wash your hands was like two sinks and every single time I was in there do my business and I go to wash my hands and there's a layer of water on this basin that was just standing.
Kyle McDowell:It had to be a quarter inch tall or a quarter inch thick of water and like everybody else I'd go wash my hands, dry my hands, toss the paper towel away and walk out and just kind of like shake my head. And then one day I realized that, by the way, almost every time there'd be another gentleman or two in there. It occurred to me that me just washing my hands, tossing this toilet paper, this tissue away after drying them, and not doing something about their work condition, I'm sending the message that this is okay or somebody else will deal with it. So one day, the day that it occurred to me for the first time, after I finished drying my hands I took these paper towels and I wiped off the basin. And I did it every single time. I used that restroom for that visit. So for two, three, days.
Kyle McDowell:When I came back about a number of weeks later, wouldn't you know that that counter was bone dry? And I didn't. I didn't commission any extra janitorial work.
Dr. Leah OH:I didn't tell people.
Kyle McDowell:Hey, man, wipe this thing off every now and then. My, my, my behavior was observed, and I sent the message that I care about your work environment, not just because I'm here once a month, but because I care about you being here every day. That lead was followed. I don't know who started to do it, but I have a feeling it's a collection of gentlemen that watched me do it over time and I just think it's.
Kyle McDowell:I love your example of picking up that trash and that's my example of wiping that basin down and I'd like to think it's still dry today.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, yeah, that power of role modeling right, the persuasion of it is so powerful.
Kyle McDowell:Subliminal almost.
Dr. Leah OH:Yes, yes, exactly. So we've talked about our titled leaders, and now I'm wondering for folks who are not in a traditional leadership position. Maybe they're not even interested in that at all, but what is it that they can do, day in, day out, to demonstrate and foster excellence at work?
Kyle McDowell:You know, I kind of go back to the last question, and that's setting an example. People want to be around people that lift them up. We want to be around people that inspire us and motivate us. And whether I have a position of authority, in other words, where I lead others formally or not, the way I carry myself inside of the workplace, the energy that I kind of exude can be magnetic and unfortunately, the opposite of that is true. So if I'm a pigpen from the peanuts and I've got this cloud over my head all the time.
Kyle McDowell:Right, it's going to attract others that love that cloud and others that always are looking for something to find fault. But you know, for those that are looking to have an impact before their quote unquote leadership, formal leadership journey starts even if they ever want to start that journey. If you're looking to have an impact, you can, you can, but it's a choice that you must take on every single day. It is tough, it's hard, it requires a little extra energy maybe than you otherwise thought you might want to give. So that conscious decision is really important.
Kyle McDowell:But again, and I look at it this way, if you approach your job like it's a job, like I'm here nine to five, I'm going to check some boxes, cross some T's, dot some I's and I'm going to go home which, by the way, there's nothing wrong with that If that is who you are and that's how you want to approach your days, then there's nothing wrong with that. But if you approach it as if I have a chance to have an impact on others around me, I have a chance to put myself in a better position in terms of my income and taking on more and finding some fulfillment, where I spend nearly 100,000 hours of my whole life, then it will be that it will be something more than a job. But again, that's a conscious choice that we all must make, Regularly. Make that choice, actually.
Dr. Leah OH:Yes, yes, some days it's easier than others. It's hard man, when you frame that over 100,000 hours, I think for so many that's probably a really nice wake up. It's a lot of time, a lot of time. So how do I want to spend that?
Kyle McDowell:That's it. What do I want that to feel like for me? I'm sorry I didn't mean to step on you, but the only thing you'll do more than those 90 to a hundred thousand hours is sleep. You'll spend your time working on average. In the US, we spend more time working than anything else.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, yeah. So with that in mind, with this amount of time we're spending at work, and we know that organizations are starting to embrace culture in really positive ways, more so than they ever have in the past, how do organizations sustain this culture of excellence over time and then, especially when we have uncertainty or challenges or recessions, all of these things that pop up? What does that look like?
Kyle McDowell:Yeah, it's a really great question because it's something that I struggle with. I wouldn't say struggle, it's something that I confront regularly and so in my business I am approached often about doing keynotes or taking on executive coaching or organizational assessments, and I would say there are two types of folks within organizations that reach out to me those that are genuinely interested in driving change and they want to have an impact and they want their organization to be known for something it's not quite known for at the moment, and I love working with that cohort.
Kyle McDowell:The other side of the coin and this will get back to your question is the group that recognizes that quote unquote culture is in vogue, or they had a recent employee engagement survey not go so well and they need to check a box. In other words, they're going through the motions. It's an initiative and it's not a way of life. Those are the types of engagements that I just try to shy away from and usually will turn down that type of business. And I share that because that is what I'm seeing inside of organizations those that feel as if they need to launch a culture initiative to turn things around, or those, more appropriately and much more wisely, say we need to do things differently and we recognize that doing them differently is going to be uncomfortable. It's going to be a journey.
Kyle McDowell:It's going to be something that's going to require constant attention. It's not a light bulb, it's not a switch and we're never done. This job is never done, and so it's one thing to create an environment that people want to be a part of and are passionately contributing, but it's another thing to sustain that, and that's where the effort must be exponential from our leaders Because, as you mentioned, some days it's easy, some days it's hard, but every day it's a requirement. So I do think there's an element in there of what I like to say is relatability plus authenticity equals trust, because you mentioned, through the highs and lows and we have external forces, market forces, competition, the market whatever's happening there are going to be challenges, and what I think must what separates really high-performing organizations that are able to sustain that performance over time is those that are the leaders, are real about the challenges that they're facing.
Kyle McDowell:They don't they don't have, they don't turn a cheek and act like nothing's wrong, because that's inauthentic and not relatable. So there's no trust from their team. It's when the leader says hey man, yeah, we got some competition So-and-so down the street. They just lowered their prices and they're they're just kicking our butts on. You know whatever measurement we're looking at. So what are we going to do, you guys? Are we going to wilt or are we going to lock arms and allow this to galvanize us and we respond appropriately? I think when the leader says I'm not worried about that, when clearly there's a problem, the team senses a little bit of inauthenticity, clearly no relatability, so trust is gone. So it's a long-winded way of saying it is something that must be reinforced every single day. Ideally, most conversations there's an element of inspiration, motivation and what it is we're trying to do, and that's just something we lean on every quarter when a survey comes out.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, no, I love that and my leadership communication brain is working and thinking of it like a really good relationship, right? Those are the ones that every day, we're showing up, we're doing the work, we're having the hard conversations, because when we don't talk about one thing, then all of a sudden it grows legs. And now we're not talking about a few things and recipe for disaster, right.
Kyle McDowell:So true, I love that you said that, actually because we tend to kind of separate how we behave outside of work and how we behave while we're at work. I mean, Dr Leah we have two different vocabularies, right? When was the last time you came home and asked your significant other or your children like hey, did you nail those deliverables?
Kyle McDowell:that we talked about yesterday. Oh, great question, let's put that in the parking lot, I'll come back, we'll circle back to it, right, it doesn't happen. So we're expected to speak a different way. So that authenticity takes a hit and I think it subliminally bleeds into the rest of our existence, where, when we just approach it, like you just said, like a genuine relationship not a boss, an employee or a work relationship what do you need out of this? What do I need out of this? They may be different and that's okay, but let's align on those needs, and I think we're better off for that because we're more human. I can trust you Theoretically. I can trust you more. So I just feel like the more human we can be inside the workplace, the better off we are.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, and like you're saying in your book, you've got you, you've got me, and then we've got we right, we're putting this all together. So we're just about wrapping up, which I'm really bummed because it's such a fun conversation and I'm learning so much from you. But before we end with advice for employees and leaders, I'm wondering if you could leave us with a success story, so either an organization or a particular leader, someone that was able to kind of take a challenge or transform that culture into one that you're really impressed by and proud of.
Kyle McDowell:Yeah, I can't go any further than the transformation I alluded to at the top of our conversation. So the night before I was going to meet with the top 40 or 50 leaders of this new organization I had just taken on, I knew I needed to bring a different message. They had heard it all. The leader before me had been dismissed. I believe the woman before him was also dismissed, I'm not certain, but it was clear to me there was some dysfunction that needed to be addressed. So the next morning I stepped out and shared these 10 we's the 10 principles and the transformation that unfolded after.
Kyle McDowell:Not just in business results, let me point that out quickly. The business results took a leap, exponential leap in nearly every measurable versus previous quarters and years, unprecedented results, and that, to me, was important. But what was more satisfying is the transformation I saw in people. I watched bosses become real leaders, caring more about those around them than themselves. These silos that had been built for years and years and years, decades, actually were starting to come down. But here's the commentary I think out of this whole scenario. That I think speaks volumes, at least for me personally, because the results were what they were the first 20 plus years of my career, dr Leah, I'm probably in touch with two or three of those folks that I talk to a couple times a year, maybe the last half dozen years of my career. There are a handful, if not more, people that I still have regular one-on-ones with and we haven't been in a formal reporting relationship and worked together in over six years.
Kyle McDowell:So the connections I made, in addition to the business results and those one-on-ones are still helpful because I bounce career ideas off of them. Where I'm taking the business, they bounce ideas and issues off of me. It's really, really beautiful to watch and I'm so grateful for those relationships and how long they've lasted. But I think that's the commentary I would share when we talk about success. The business results you know irrefutably better, but the connections that I made in those relationships are still so important and profound in my life that I think that's the real measurement of success, of that transformation.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, and that is a huge testament to your principles, because OrgCom scholars again, we're a very dorky crowd, but there's this joke like how do you change culture? Will you fire everyone and start again? Because it's so hard, it's so entrenched and your ability again in taking the shift. I mean it's so incredible that you're able to impact it in that way and thank you for doing that incredible work in organizations.
Kyle McDowell:Well, thank you, it's my purpose now. I really do feel like. It's why I'm here and I spend pretty much every waking moment trying to spread this message. Not for selfish reasons either. I just feel like if we're going to spend so much time in this thing called work, is it time well spent? Are we getting the most out of it? It's not going to be perfect, it's not going to be fun. It's not called vacation, it's called work.
Kyle McDowell:But I think, approaching it with a we orientation, a we paradigm has been a huge change for me and those that I've been able to work with and share the message with. So thank you for giving me the platform to share it even further.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, so last two questions for you, kyle, and these go hand in hand. So we always end the communicative leader with advice. It can be challenge, it can be a tip, but advice for our title leaders and then advice for employees of all ranks across all industries. So what are those kind of two things you want to leave us with?
Kyle McDowell:Yeah, so I'm going to go in the opposite order that you teed it up. My advice for anyone actually in workplace or outside of the workplace you be you man.
Dr. Leah OH:You be you.
Kyle McDowell:Just be you. Now, I'm not naive. There are environments that won't accept you and there are environments that will try to filter and even change you. I would submit there are more opportunities than you are even aware of, and there is an organization, there's a team, there's a tribe that will value you for exactly who you are, challenge you to be better than you were the day before, motivate you to really to drive results but also have an impact, those and it may take some bouncing around to find that, by the way, I'm not naive to the fact that if you're in an organization or a team that's not checking those boxes for you, I'd encourage you to take the hard steps to start looking for something different, and I understand that that's not always an option for folks, because we have commitments and bills and things. But I just submit you've got to do your very best and it takes effort to find a scenario that provides you the impact that you want to have, the fulfillment that you deserve, and an environment that allows you to be you. So be you. That's everybody else's take in.
Kyle McDowell:And then the advice I would give to leaders, our named leaders, is allow the team to be themselves. Allow members in your circle to be who they are. If they are falling short in an area, it's your responsibility to help pick them up and bring them to the level that you think is appropriate for that role and that person. If you are able to allow folks around you to be their authentic selves, you're going to get more ideas. You'll get more solutions. You'll have some really healthy disagreements, which is really productive. But it's when you try to kind of put this net over people, asking them to speak a certain way, dress a certain way, behave a certain way, just because it caters to your ego. I think that is a recipe for leadership of yesteryear. It doesn't resonate with the workforce today and you're selling yourself short also because you won't have the impact that you could otherwise have when you just let people be themselves authentic selves.
Dr. Leah OH:Yes, beautifully, beautifully spoken. And, kyle, thank you again for joining us today in the Communicative Leader. This has been a really energizing conversation. I'm so excited to help share the amazing work you're doing with others.
Kyle McDowell:It's been my pleasure. Leah, Thank you again for having me. You're doing really important work and I'm always here to help and joining a platform like yours has been a real treat, so thank you.
Dr. Leah OH:All right, my friends. That wraps up our conversation today. Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose. I'm looking forward to chatting with you again soon on the Communicative Leader.
