The Communicative Leader
On The Communicative Leader, we're making your work life what you want it to be. Do you need years of training or special equipment? Not at all my friends. Simple, yet thoughtful changes in your communication can make great strides in displaying your leadership ability. And why the heck should you care about leadership communication? Well, communication is the yardstick others use to determine whether or not they see you as a leader. Ahhh don't be scared, I got you. We will walk through common organizational obstacles and chat about small, but meaningful communication-rooted changes you can integrate immediately. No more waiting for the workplace to become what you hope it will. Nope. You, my friends, will be empowered and equipped to make those changes. Let's have some fun! Can't get enough?
Join our weekly email list to receive episode recaps, previews, and most importantly, communication-rooted solutions for your everyday workday questions and experiences. Sign up here: http://eepurl.com/h91B0v
We'd love to hear from you! Send us your questions and requests via email or a voice note to TheCommunicativeLeader@gmail.com.
The Communicative Leader
The Balancing Act: Navigating the Professional Paradox and Leading with Communication with Nancy Ho
In this conversation, Nancy Ho discusses her journey to becoming a life strategist and executive coach. She emphasizes the importance of finding joy and purpose in life and the need to balance personal and professional fulfillment.
Nancy also debunks myths about work-life balance and instead promotes the idea of work-life integration. She highlights the significance of deep diving into the root causes of issues and shifting mindset and strategies.
Some other takeaways:
- Finding joy and purpose in life is essential for personal fulfillment.
- Work-life balance is a myth, and work-life integration is a more realistic approach.
- Deep diving into the root causes of issues is crucial for personal growth.
- Self-reflection is a key practice for understanding oneself and making positive changes. Self-reflection is crucial for understanding our thoughts and behaviors.
Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose.
Looking for more leadership tips?
Join our weekly email list to receive episode recaps, previews, and most importantly, communication-rooted solutions for your everyday workday questions and experiences.
Sign up here: http://eepurl.com/h91B0v
Hey leader! Thanks for listening. For more leadership communication tips, check out https://www.thecommunicativeleader.com/
Today on the Communicative Leader, we welcome Nancy Ho. Nancy is a life strategist and an executive coach, and she shares her journey with us and talks to us about the importance of work-life integration. You might not have heard that term before, because we usually think about work-life balance, but Nancy challenges this misconception that work-life balance means equal hours for work and for personal life, and instead she talks to us about the idea of work-life integration. I had so much fun learning from Nancy and I know you will too. Let's dive in.
Dr. Leah OH:Hello and welcome to the Communicative Leader hosted me, Dr. Leah Omilion-Hodges. My friends call me Dr OH. I'm a professor of communication and a leadership communication expert. On the Communicative Leader, we're working to make your work life what you want it to be.
Dr. Leah OH:Nancy. Thank you so much for joining us today on the Communicative Leader. I'm really excited about the work that you do and it's so important and I can't wait to share that. Before we dive in. Could you give us a little background about yourself and talk to us about what led you to where you are today?
Nancy Ho:Good morning For me. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, whoever the listeners, right? Well, this is an interesting question because usually people expect, like you know, I join an organization and then that's my calling, or whatever, or something happened and you know I shift to my gear, or something like that. But for me, I call it a natural progression. All right, being very, very blessed. All right to be born in Singapore, because from the get-go, as in the 60s, we already have got this great leader, our late Mr Lee Kuan Yew, which is really a leader. Everybody knows that. That's why Singapore is a brand. All right, the latest, you know, uh, chief taylor. Look at that, you know what I mean, right? Yeah, so I grew up sort of like um, being influenced in a sense of the way we think, which probably younger generation, uh, unfortunately do not benefit as much because they already, you know, sort of uh, benefit from the fruits, you know, from our fallen fathers, so to speak okay, so anyway.
:So the thing is is that you know sort of benefit from the fruits?
Nancy Ho:you know, from our fallen fathers, so to speak. Okay, so anyway. So the thing is, is that you know so well, uh, we are rather I am influenced, or I was influenced to think so-called out of box. If you want your life good, you just have to make it happen. And for some reason I do not like to sort of like, be the conventional thing. Okay, nothing wrong with that. But then since, as a kid, I just want to be different, in that sense, all right. So in school, in some way, I already say you know, I've got a group of so-called classmate friends and somehow I would Lead them in my own way, I would listen to their problems, like, okay, we all have got problems, right, but we have to do this, we have to do that. You know that sort of stuff. It was kind of natural. And also, you know, by watching, you know Mr Lee Kuan Yew how he make his speeches. I was literally, like you know, watching a pop concert.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, this is the way to go, yeah.
Nancy Ho:So therefore, after quite a natural kind of natural thing again always a natural thing that I said I do not want to just get a job, do earn a job, make my money and then have a lifestyle. I want a lifestyle, but that's not what I want to do. So at a very young age at 24, I've already been on my own. The first business that I enhanced, or rather I chanced upon or I embarked on, I was an image consultant. So at that time there was a gap. Consultant, okay, yeah. So at that time, all right, there was a gap and a lack.
Nancy Ho:In business etiquette, you know social graces and stuff like that. Of course. I was in UK studying and then I actually joined an image consultancy, or so-called, to make some money as a part-time job. You know that kind of thing. So when I came back and I said, no, I want to do that, all right, I want to be just in the forefront of stuff. And then, of course, you know, then, followed by all the other soft skills like communications, which is up your alley, all right, effective communications. You know all the other soft skills, that's necessary, negotiation skills and the people skills. I'll call it so.
Nancy Ho:From there, I just add to my portfolio Right, whereby I'll see myself as a guide to the C-suites business owners to help them or assist them to fill the gap and the gap is between personal fulfillment and professional fulfillment and being in this part of the world. I guess it's really about all the first world country issue. We can be a bit too materialistic. We just look at, you know, the dream that we want and we go for the dream, which is good, we need that, we want that.
Nancy Ho:But unfortunately, while focusing on that, something give way relationships, family relationships, because they don't spend time all right, their own health, they lack self-care, right, and of course, I don't know how much people are located. I think it's very important that we look at our spirituality as well, and that doesn't necessarily mean a faith or religion. So today, that's what I do, so, day and night out. Merely that I actually would be by the side of the person, just like I was a child once upon a time not child when I was in school that I would listen to their issues, just like I was a child once upon a time not child when I was in school.
Nancy Ho:All right, then I will listen to their issues. Like afterwards I've got a CEO from a startup. The startup had been around for like six years and to help them I help with people so he will come in tell me about. I'll say, okay, tell me what's been going on for the last one week. So then you come in tell me about. I would say, okay, tell me what's been going on for the last one week. So then you would tell me this and that and I would listen, then I would identify the gaps, yeah, and then I would then come up with a strategy. What do we do now with this gap? Yeah, so this is what I do Big part of my life, nearly my whole life.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, Excellent. That was such a thoughtful and riveting response and I really love it's such a nice example of encouraging people to lean into those curiosities, those interests, those things that make you you, because then you're really able to see how you can pursue that and be successful and happy at the same time with that. So thank you for giving us that context to help us understand.
Nancy Ho:Yeah, what is the point at the end of the day when we do not have joy? I do not even look at the word happy. Happy is a negative word, it is positive. But then again, happiness, people tend to look at it with an external connotation I'll be happy when I've got a bigger house. I'll be happy when I get that promotion. I'll be happy when which all that are good and well, provided if all this external stuff truly give you internal joy, which is far from this fact that, after they reach that goal, and then what's next? Because they don't feel fulfilled there, they reach that goal, and then what's next? Because they don't feel fulfilled, there's a void again, and then what's next? And then what's next and what's next. So they keep chasing, and they keep chasing At the end of the day, which, okay, I'm not.
Nancy Ho:Okay, I always make this joke, right Me? No, spring chicken, I'm 60 years old. Hence I say that it's great to be older. When you're older, you get away what you say, right? Really, I would just go like spring chicken. I'm 60 years old and I am proud of the fact that I've got this joy, waking up every morning, looking forward to the day, whereas my friends and people that I hang out with are usually older than me, they're probably mid-60s, 70s and then they actually say I don't even know what I wake up to. Yes, I have this job, I've got this big business. You know what I mean, I've got this big responsibility. And they actually feel drained. They feel like I can't give up because I would actually disappoint a lot of people. Let alone there are some younger ones or other younger leaders where they still have to fund the education of their kids and all that. So I think that's sad, where we wake up and like we question ourselves wake up to what?
Nancy Ho:yeah yeah, that is a hard yeah, yes a hard path yes, and therefore to to verify what I say. Is this a fact? That people do not wake up to that joy? And then? So what? If they do not wake up to joy, they become sick, and the simplest way to look at life is this right, our brain produces natural chemical feel good, good chemical, feel bad. That chemical we don't need to be a doctor, we don't need to especially on that to understand, isn't?
Dr. Leah OH:it right, exactly, exactly.
Nancy Ho:So if they wake up all right, or throughout the day, mostly feeling bad, whatever bad means stress, burnout, frustrated, angry, whatever that might be Then the brain produces bad chemical called cortisol and obviously either you attack ourselves, attack organs, attack someone. So look around the whole entire world how many seniors right which I'm really considered a senior, okay, 60. All right. How many seniors all right, eventually were passed on on, which we all have passed on, not sick, before they passed up? I'm talking about major sickness? Very few. It's such a small percentage that they still show. We all have spary day, you know. But the point is that you know they. They ideally, of course, know we go in our sleep or we are still in fairly good health. Very, very few. And I refused to be in the statistics. Yeah, I refused to be in the statistics. So I do a lot of self-care and I would never allow myself, you know, so-called put myself in a position, rather all right, that my brain would produce this cortisol as much as possible.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, yeah, that is the goal.
Nancy Ho:Yes, that's an important goal. Yeah, yes, way more important than anything else in our life.
Dr. Leah OH:I agree, I agree, and so that you know someone else Way more important than anything else in our life, I agree, I agree, but yet people say that yeah, you know someone else.
Nancy Ho:I mean it's interesting, we see that of other people, but we think it won't happen to us.
Dr. Leah OH:That is true. We do underestimate, you know, the capacity of these outside elements, that we see them and how they can impact us, and actually that leads us. So when you're talking about what you do and the importance and I was preparing for our talk I kept thinking I bet you hear a lot of misconceptions or a lot of myths about this work-life balance and I'm wondering if you could tell us what some of those myths are and then how you coach your clients to help overcome them or manage these in a better way, in an effective way, I think first the person needs to understand what is work-life balance.
Nancy Ho:So I've got a lot of clients thinking work-life balance is almost like equal number of hours, almost, you know. Equal number of hours to work, equal number of hours to rest with the family. And then they get really frustrated right when they have to put more time at work. But let alone to me. We all have 24 hours.
Nancy Ho:Why is it that some people can do much more and not stressed out and some people just have two tasks and then they're like my god, it's the end of the world? You know that first thing called self-management. So before work-life balance come, self-management is big, right, I mean it's big. You have to look at your self-management is big, right, I mean it's big. You have to look at your self-management. If you manage yourself well, then your brain will not produce that bad chemical Right. After all, you know, I said to a lot of other executives and when they said, oh, it's so stressed out, it's so hard and especially programming is so hard, I said without offence, what's really hard about our job? The real hard job are those people in the construction site blazing hot sun, yeah, they have to Weather whatever, especially in Singapore.
Nancy Ho:It's so hard and human. That's hard work, that's serious hard work, because there's a toll on our physical body, alright. So what is hard work for us Is here, what we choose to perceive and think. So self-management first has to come in, then next, right. Instead of I look at it, instead of the, I reframe it, instead of work-life balance, I'd rather look at work-life integration. How do you integrate? Right, just every aspect of your life, which is not even just family. And let's say, okay, let's use the word personal, not just personal and professional. One has to dive deeper. What does it mean by personal? What does it might mean by professional? So it's not just family work. Yeah, all right, I exercise five times all right a week every morning first
Nancy Ho:thing right, nothing else. I think about the first thing I want to do Right, two days break, five times a week. Because you know, this is a physical body, it's like a vehicle If it breaks down, I'm not about doing anything else. Yeah, so I integrate my exercise with my schedule. So I have to be flexible, fluid, to know how to adjust my timing depending on my schedule.
Nancy Ho:Sometimes I do have somebody comes in at 7.30 am. Right, they want to do this stuff before they go to work, because when they go to the office they know, you know it's that back-to-back meeting they'll be distracted, they're not going to come by the end of the night. Forget it. Right, they are. You know, I don't want, I don't want to do anything else and of course that their commitment with the family and their own social life. So I would just integrate this my timing, my schedule, all right, with what I want to do, like self-care and even other personal pursuits. So I'll look at it as the work-life integration than the work-life balance, because the word balance then people have the wrong connotation again. That balance means everything else fairly equal, or I have this, I don't have that. To have this, I have to give up that, which don't make sense either. So I run a very busy practice. I have time for anything and everything, so long. These are the things I want to do.
Dr. Leah OH:So, I look at it that way, yeah, so powerful and I was even thinking when you were talking about balance and I thought of the traditional scale imagery, right, and, like you said, it'd be so hard to get it balanced, even more so than when we see when they're out of balance. Then that doesn't feel good. But I like that idea of integration because it's realistic, it is achievable with some planning and I love that idea that you are a professional, successful individual and you saying I have time for everything, so long as I want to do it and I think that is something we should all take away is that we can do this. It just is figuring out the importance and how we're going to do it Correct.
Nancy Ho:It's the mindset I have no time, programming like as if, like it is like information you are doing every day. I have no time, I have no time, I have no time, yeah, yeah time. Then you have no time. I said I have time to do anything everything, so long I want to, I've got things I don't want to things I'm not interested, then of course I say I have no time.
Dr. Leah OH:No time, Yep, exactly oh wonderful. And Nancy, this is a perfect segue, so I was wondering about your key practices. So what are these elements or strategies that will help to contribute to this work-life integration All?
Nancy Ho:right. There are various things that I do. I do first thing first. All right. I believe all of us has to know so-called the root of our issue. I don't do superficial stuff that just go around the obvious think positive, think good, feel good. Of course we don't want to think negative and feel bad, that's so obvious. But yet, contrary, the white people are not thinking the positive but slant into negative Again. Right, as I said, my age people around me. After a while I look at them, I said why do you talk like that?
Nancy Ho:That means not as positive, right? Why are you complaining? Right, you can take too much. So I'm sure they don't want to. Unconsciously they did that.
Nancy Ho:So the first thing I do a deep dive to get to the root cause. And whether fortunately or unfortunately, this root cause often stem from childhood. It doesn't mean that we got to come from a violent family. You know really bad childhood. But again, you know something we perceive as a child, because when we are really young we do not have that sense of analysis yet. It's like a sponge. You just take it in, right, and that information, all right, is stored in the subconscious mind and consciously. When something triggers we don't even know that, we just associate with, as I stated, a thousand other events that are similar to this and therefore I react instead of responding. So that's the first thing I do to deep dive.
Nancy Ho:Then the second thing, of course, from the deep dive, then we have to recognize what are the changes that's necessary. There's no value to know the problem when we don't know what else or the strategy to go about changing. So I would have mapped out the strategy, what's needing to change. In fact, I don't usually use the word change, I rather use the word shift what needs to shift? Because I mean the clients that come to me. They're not teenagers, they're not young adults. They know so much. Sometimes they don't even know what they know. I'm sure it is with us, right. Sometimes they don't know what they know.
Dr. Leah OH:I'm sure it is with us right.
Nancy Ho:We don't know what we know. We are committed so much, right, okay, so we have to look at the strategy to make that shift. And it's interesting the moment that shift is made, it's permanent, like once you see light, you see light, exactly Many. That's how you go right, kind of who do you talk to, yeah, who do you practice to, and everyone else will look up to you that, hey come on, you know you're the leader, you can do it and you've done it.
Nancy Ho:But then deep down it's like, okay, so therefore and you know you're the leader, you can do it and you've done it but then, deep down, it's like I don't know, okay, so therefore, then we make the shift, that, after the shift, self-reflection is key, all right, but self-reflection cannot come first because I don't even know the root cause. Even I self-reflect and self-reflect and I go like I know, but I'm doing the exact opposite. They're doing the exact opposite, as they are doing what they don't want, but they keep doing what they don't want and they debate themselves.
Nancy Ho:Yesterday I just had someone, you know, kind of high flyer, and it was that moment of truth that he actually looked at me and said that you know, kind of high flyer, and, um, it was that moment of truth that he actually looked at me and said that you know, I really hate myself. I said, hang on, why? Because I'm doing the things I don't want. Okay, I said, you know, you know, sort of like we can, we can put up the front with people, but we cannot put up the front with ourselves when we are, by ourselves, absolutely naked. I mean absolutely, yeah, so then, of course, then I, you know, talked to him and I said come, let's do some self-reflection all right so they go.
Nancy Ho:Oh yeah, that's what we covered the last time about this root cause. I said, exactly, you're kind of a little bit mindless. Therefore you got yourself associated with something X, y, z and therefore you've been doing the exact opposite. So self-reflection is not just self-reflection, but we have to reflect. What are we thinking? So the first thing, anybody comes to me and says, hey, this has happened and I don't like it, and I said, okay, let's go back to that moment. What were you thinking? Because that triggers that reflection, right, not the event. People spend a lot of time looking at the event and when we look at the event, we tend to unconsciously go into some kind of blame someone caused, someone caused that right, the stuff, the person, that's not as effective. And then it's a mistake. And now I have to answer to it. I mean, it tend to be yeah, it's just natural.
Nancy Ho:So self-reflection also taking what the um, not just responsibility. The um, just keep in mind the not responsibility. The other word was that uh, accountability, that's right. Accountability first, that, not about that I've done wrong, but it's like what was I thinking? Then, again, that creates a deeper understanding. Only with a deeper understanding, then we know how to correct the changes. It's an auto mechanism we all have. Again, we are not a child anymore. Yeah, so this is what I do and it was like, you know, the sea light, and that's the results they get often after they leave here, all right, I can't tell them, uh, exactly what to do.
Nancy Ho:I don't, I'm not in their place, right? That's why I said I serve as a guide okay.
Nancy Ho:Confident, so they can tell me stuff and I don't judge, I listen to it with an open mind, I understand, and then I you know whatever I mentioned early on. And then, of course, I would then ask them to also go back and do the self-reflection on a regular basis. I said don't catch what you're thinking first. That's interesting because we don't know, because everything happens so fast. Right, I said catch your feelings. When you feel, example frustrated, go back in time. Yeah, example frustrated yeah, go back in time. Yeah, you feel frustrated. What were you thinking that make you feel frustrated? Then you get it. Yes, all right, otherwise what are you thinking?
Nancy Ho:I don't know. And then again we just look at that moment, what's in front of us, and we say again that person, that situation, that event, no, the event that situation that event no. The event. The situation is neutral. It's what we are thinking about it. That gives it so-called meaning. Right.
Dr. Leah OH:Everything outside is neutral, if you have no thoughts there's no feelings.
Nancy Ho:If there's no feelings, there's no action.
Dr. Leah OH:Simple as that, exactly.
Nancy Ho:So this is kind of what I'm.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, yeah. When you were talking, I was hearing this idea of the stories we tell ourselves.
Dr. Leah OH:Yes, and that a lot of times we're not even consciously aware of the triggers or the connections that are underlying it. But then through self-reflection and then the shift that you're talking about, like once we make that commitment to being kind of present and neutral and looking at the feeling, so you're saying that then you tend to see people, once they make that commitment, it kind of sticks for them right, like it's a they see the light. I think is what you said.
Nancy Ho:Yeah, yeah, I mean, you see, this is you are right about the stories, right yeah, another word, I call it your narratives. What is our narrative? Yes yes, Right, it's our narrative that we are running at the back right that we are not unconscious. Unconscious meaning we are not conscious, is there, but it's running you know, in the background right.
Nancy Ho:Okay, so the moment we know all right so-called we understand, then we can change the narratives. If we don't understand, we will keep the same narratives. We will keep the same story. Of course, perhaps some people say it in a different way.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, exactly the same, you know, and then we can see, yeah, how you're waking up without joy. Then, if you're running that same narrative and feeling like there's no time and you're so tired, we can't expect then to feel refreshed or excited and energized and joyful, absolutely.
Nancy Ho:In fact, frustrations over time lead to depression.
Dr. Leah OH:Why.
Nancy Ho:Yeah, why? Because, of course, it's not just frustrated one time, two times. You know, time and again, that's fine, I'm talking, you know. Constant frustration, yeah, constant frustration simply means I've been trying to do this and do that, and do this and do that, and make changes, and make changes, but nothing works. So over a period of time when nothing seems to work, then it's despair. A feeling of despair, yeah, yep, and that feeling of despair can lead us into depression.
Dr. Leah OH:Yep, yeah. That's a hard place to be.
Nancy Ho:You're right. So this is stuff that I look up for my client, that I look up for my client. I look up for my client. I say, hey, your frustration has been very intense. So, okay, watch it, let's break it. We have to break it. We have short-circuited it, so to speak. You cannot afford to keep it going. You see, the problem with confident people like us yeah guilty, yeah right, but the confident people is that they tend to be a little bit um, stubborn yeah, I might have heard that before.
Nancy Ho:Yeah so no, it works, it used to work. I said, yes, you're right, it used to work, but it's not working anymore. If it's not working anymore, something got to change. Yeah, right, of course, the flip side of that is determination. That's why we get to where we are today. You know what I mean. So while it is good, I know that's, the flip side of that is determination. That's why we get to where we are today. You know what I mean. So, while it is good, I know there's always flip side to stuff. Right. While there's a positive, the flip side can be negative, right. So we are very determined. We want to achieve, and achieve, and achieve, but then suddenly there's a brick wall. You don't keep going against the brick wall, you are hurting yourself. You got to think about how do I go around it? You know what I mean Stuff like that.
Nancy Ho:Now it's easy if it's a real physical brick wall, but unfortunately it's an invisible brick wall so they can't see better. And that's where I sort of assist them, or they can use my lens to see that.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, yeah, so powerful, nancy, so powerful. I love, I love all of this and we've talked a lot about the individual and now I'm wondering like I want to bring in the leaders and managers and organizations.
Nancy Ho:And.
Dr. Leah OH:I'm wondering you know, what do you suggest for them? How do they foster this culture of balance and wellbeing, or integration, in their team or in their organization?
Nancy Ho:I've written my first book called Love Reignited. It sounds like for a couple's relationship, but no, it applies to all relationships. It's supposed to be a conflict management sort of handbook. It's a conflict management handbook, so it's well. We all have conflict, right? I mean we do right, we all think differently.
Nancy Ho:And in that book, at least in three places, I mentioned deep understanding. Okay, so this I say in the whole world is pretty lacking, because we tend to use our world to impose on someone else's world. I, I mean just a quick one, right, even parents, because they do not come to me only about their work, also about their family. And I told them. I said you cannot expect your, let's say, 12-year-old world to be your world. You cannot see your world as that world. So, similarly, right, you are the leader and your staff. You cannot expect them to see your world first. They can't. Not that they don't want to. Just like I mentioned about 12-year-olds, right, you first got to understand again what are they thinking. If only people spend a bit more time to understand what the other individual is thinking, I think there'll be very, very, very little problem in the world.
Dr. Leah OH:I completely agree with you.
Nancy Ho:Right, we impose our belief, we impose our values, while values are important. But we do have different values. Someone else's A value and someone else's B value. My value, the first value, is truthfulness, but some people can't, not that they don't want to Say. The other person's value is harmony, and then I want to be truthful. Truthful, oh my god, it's already a conflict flip side of the coin exactly yeah, negative.
Nancy Ho:So I have to understand the other person's world. All right about this thing, about harmony, remember, I said that everything comes from our childhood. First, because we are a child once upon a time. So, the first thing, all right, we need to understand, not just to understand people, but understand what they are thinking, their world. Only when we understand their world then we can negotiate.
Nancy Ho:You know I use the word negotiate, you know, and we can facilitate, you know. Facilitate, you know that what we want, as say, the objective and the goal, so that the other person can't see it in their light, because if they cannot see in their perspective, then they think that it's just Budo's, what to do, you are the boss, right, and then be sentimental will come in, right. Then that team harmony will not be there and the person that can be really good, but because the value is harmony, they say, oh, this is not the place for me, because I don't feel that harmony. Yeah, I feel that, you know, I'm being, you know, told off, I've been called up in all that. So I see a lot of this in the corporate world, with this misunderstanding. They're all good people, mind you, they're all good people, but then they're just on on a different page, if I may say that you know. So if you're on a different page, how do you resolve anything so?
Nancy Ho:they're understanding, knowing that person's world, as I keep saying what are you thinking? What are you thinking, what are you thinking? Always ask the same question what are you thinking? So tell me?
Nancy Ho:what you're thinking All right, yeah, then after that you know, look at the common goal let's call it common goal objective and ask them how would they want to resolve, or how that means their input? Yeah, then they feel respected, they feel they're being heard, rather than it's just instruction and policy passed down. You like it or not. You just do it, shape up. Shape up or ship out. I mean that kind of very old school that works, but not today, when people are educated right.
Nancy Ho:It just won't work, even in our government. I can see the shift during Lee Kuan Yew's days and the second minister. And now a quick one. You know that during our national day, those were the days where the party PAP would wear white, everything white Over the years. Now they're colourful. Okay, now it's the younger generation, people like us, people that are older than we already know them. We respect them. We are going at some point. You know what I mean the younger ones. So national dinner is colorful. The ministers were dressed up with all the colors and patterns, everything.
Nancy Ho:The show will be like more you know, hype and this, and that, of course, they may not always be right, but because they know that they're being respected and heard. So when you then give your input, they're able to see why you want them to do X, y, z way. I think this would be a better you know way to cooperate. Uh, they would look up to the leader and respect the leader much more than you. Just, you know what do you? Just you know, hand it down to me. You know, I have no other choice. You know stuff like that.
Nancy Ho:Of course, we do have to set boundaries. That that's very important because, again, we all think different, we come from different backgrounds and all that. But set boundaries is not just a black and white, but in a very respectful way, all right to know what is accepted and what's not accepted. Again, back to the common goal not being personal. One of the biggest problems in the world is being personal. You see that they get personal, so they get personal. Their thinking is WAP as well. That's how I work with my clients as well.
Dr. Leah OH:Excellent. I was taking notes when you were talking, nancy, because there's so much wisdom here and I found myself thinking you're right. Just asking what are you thinking is a way to develop a partnership, so it doesn't feel like a superior and subordinate? And to develop trust and we have psychological safety then. So all of these ingredients that really help to make a workplace a place I want to be a part of, to share ideas, to own mistakes, to grow together.
Nancy Ho:I mean, it's really a beautiful thing, yeah, and that's true sense of communication, isn't it Talk down when that's called communicate exactly, you're just doing this, do this, do this? That's not communication.
Dr. Leah OH:No no, no, you're giving all this yes yeah, yeah, exactly yeah, yeah. Being talked at isn't isn't a fun place to be yes, absolutely.
Nancy Ho:That's why, not so long ago was it last year? What did you call it? Quiet quitting? Oh, exactly, yes, yeah, because the people are dissatisfied as what we are talking about Exactly. I still need the bucks, right, I still have to pay my bills.
Dr. Leah OH:I just sit there do whatever, do the bare minimum.
Nancy Ho:Yeah, correct.
Dr. Leah OH:Exactly, and that's what quadrupling is about right.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, and so I found myself thinking, when we were just talking about the role of a leader or manager and what they can do, one thing I've been thinking about is how that leader or manager can kind of be vulnerable, how they can share you know their struggles with trying to find balance or integration so how can they share that in a way that they can maintain authority and feel safe, but also kind of role model, that this is hard because it's hard, not because you're doing it wrong, right? So what would you suggest there?
Nancy Ho:Yeah, the word that you said is so key role model, role model, right Again, you know you can tell by now my hero is our late Mr Lee Kuan Yew. Right, he's indeed a role model. So I said earlier about self-management If the leader doesn't look like a leader, it just goes down the tube. And we're seeing that. You know I'm not, I don't want to talk politics here, but we are seeing that in the, you know, in the political world too, only see it Right. So you got to again the self-management. Because people see, are you talking your talk, walking your walk? If the leader is not, even you talk about your vulnerability.
Nancy Ho:I have my difficulties too. People shut up because they can't see you as someone they want to respect. So it's very important first thing first, like, as a role leader, you influence them by your own action. First, we don't need to be popular, because it's hard to be popular, like everybody likes you because some decision is not being liked, because people think the way they want to think.
Nancy Ho:I run this group coaching, so I'm their coach, their mentor, their trainer, all combined, and I do it with a lot of my heart and soul and I can be very hard on them at times and I said the only thing I want from each and every one of you, only one thing to create success for every single person. I leave nobody behind. But the same note, same note. Right, they look at me, I'm always stepping up, levering up. So therefore, when times when I said, hey, you are slacking, you're not doing that, all right, may not be the most pleasant tone, which sometimes is necessary. You can't be always stroking the person, it's all right. You're feeding their weakness, yeah, all right, they do not like that at that moment, but they know it's for their own good. Yep, I think it is more important. First you, I mean as a leader. We show up as a leader.
Nancy Ho:Then of course all right, love, love is important, not the intimate love, Love as that positive energy that you meant. Well, as I said earlier on, right, my love for them is that I just want to create success for each and everyone. I'm not here. You know that you guys are paying me some bucks and therefore I just, you know, do whatever I do it with my heart and soul, at the end of the day, right. That's your results, and so when somebody did well, I will always give them a reward, although they are not working for me, but I like to show as a reward, and they're not necessarily expensive stuff. So, again, as a leader, do your reward not necessarily material? Right, it could be even your words, right? Do you reward enough or do you only point out when a mistake being made? Yeah, there got to be a talking of balance.
Dr. Leah OH:That got to be this balance yes or you need to be firm all right, necessary.
Nancy Ho:You can't like, you know it's okay, it's not okay. Some things are just not okay. You gotta be firm. Sometimes even you have to make tough decision, but at the time you are displaying your love and care for your people, yeah, so if a leader can do that, even there are times. Sure, we are human, we have our vulnerability. It will not be looked at in a bad light at all. And of course, again, right, as I said, set boundaries all. And of course, again right, set boundaries.
Nancy Ho:Some things are not allowed Right, because there are policies right. Even the country has got rules. Yeah, singapore got lots of rules right, but I like that. Otherwise, people forget how to behave. Yeah, yeah, and I call that cultivation. Mm-hmm, in the family we have rules, right. I mean, when we were teenagers or whatever. There are rules and I think rules are good. Otherwise, you know, people just go like whatever and whatever is scary. Mm-hmm, exactly, I love rules.
Dr. Leah OH:Yep, yep, and I really love that you touched on kind of that role of the leader and recognizing that sometimes it is a little lonely, sometimes you are isolated, but that's part of that responsibility, right, that you have signed up for, right. Yeah, I think that's really an important reminder.
Nancy Ho:I think I'd like to add that, when you said isolation, again, even when I look at isolation, when we are comfortable within our own skin, we don't feel lonely. We only feel lonely when we are not comfortable within our own skin. I dine out a lot alone. I don't mean I won't dine out with people, but I spend a lot of time my alone time. Okay, I call that my me time, yeah. So again, the time management, the energy management is so needed, both as a leader and even you know, all the other people in the company, that I would always, you know, sort of suggest this cultivation of time and energy management. Where do you spend your time? How do you spend your energy? So, if the energy is depleted, my goodness, by the end of the day, of course, you don't want to spend time with your family, or you are there, but you're not there, and then you have your wife, your husband, complaining and they go.
Dr. Leah OH:Oh, then I have no more balance. Yeah, exactly.
Nancy Ho:Yeah, you know the person's not comfortable with their own skin. You know the time and energy management is, you know, distorted. Then, of course, everything else is just going to go sideways. Yes, yeah.
Dr. Leah OH:And you talked about me time a perfect lead-in, because I was going to ask you about the role of self-care and how you see it playing into someone being able to successfully integrate and work in life, and how you help people to kind of prioritize their well-being as they're still on an achievement track. So what does that look like?
Nancy Ho:I'm glad you asked that because it's so lopsided about this self-care and for some people, like self-care needs a lot of money, a lot of time. I'd rather use my money and time for something else, but it is not true. All right, of course, self-care first is our mental state, as I mentioned earlier on about the good chemical, our mental state, as I mentioned earlier on about the good chemical, bad chemical, it's not the appearance. Come first the mental comforts, because to look good comes from the inside out, not not the makeup I wear. You know, the makeup that I wear enhances my looks, but it would not. Yeah, okay, it'll cover up if I'm feeling bad, because I'll look haggard, I'll look tired, I'll look drained. So no amount of makeup and everything else is going to help. So first the mantra. So mantra means what? Well, I'm not suggesting that everybody must meditate, but I'd rather say you need a break.
Nancy Ho:A break is not going for holidays, a break is just being quiet. So nearly every lunchtime, or rather after lunch, I do my break 10, 15 minutes. I don't meditate, so I won't call it meditation, but just do nothing. And I have noticed when there are days that I don't do that, my brain is not as sharp as the days that I do it. I can know tonight I'm not going to be done until 10 pm because of my group coaching, so I definitely take a break at about one o'clock one pm and then I can go on and have the energy to go on. So the self-care starts with mental and also again the self-reflection what's working, what's not working, stop what's not working, reinforce what's working. As I said, we cannot afford to feel bad because we'll become sick, right? So that just two are very important mental, uh self-care. Then Then of course our physical, right? We cannot feel good if we don't look good. Mm-hmm.
Nancy Ho:Right, so you will never see me, not doll-up, I call it doll-up, not doll-up but the doll-up. You know the grooming and after. Right, I was an image consultant, right, so you'll never see me, you know, like, not properly groomed or dressed. Even I go to the gym, of course, without makeup, but still I make sure my clothing's all coordinated the color, the jizz. That's very important. In fact, I call it self-respect, yes.
Nancy Ho:I like that. We want to look good because we are not really looking at ourselves, it's others looking at us. So it's such an eyesore if we look back for others. Right, I'm a bit crazy that way, but I look at it that way, right, because before I leave the house I look at myself A big part of day and night. I don't look at myself, other people looking at me, right. So if I look awful, then it's like such a eyesore, like sore thumb, you know, sticking up, yeah, and so that the appearance of course, exercise.
Nancy Ho:We need to be feed. Okay, let me reframe. There are four things we need when we grow older in terms of physical body. We need stamina, we need flexibility, we need agility, we need strength. Without this four, we just go thrilled, really thrilled, and go down the tubes fast, yeah, yeah. Then, of course, uh, the self-care after that is also, like I said earlier on the time and energy management. That's self-care too, all right, so self-care is not just about the fiscal. Then, of course, I mentioned earlier also about yes, one more thing I nearly overlooked Our emotional regulation. That's so overlooked, remember.
Nancy Ho:I said that, confident people. There's a problem, right? So we fear a certain way, we insist on feeling a certain way, because this is what it means, that is true. But if this becomes overdrive, then we're going to take a toll on us. So the emotional regulation, right. And then, of course, the spiritual I'm thinking about. And what means spiritual means energy. I do not mean a faith, right. So only when you have this positive energy, then you are aligned to god, you're aligned to the higher self, you're aligned to the higher power, whatever it means for each individual. So to me, I'm big, I'm big.
Dr. Leah OH:Self-care comes first before anything else yeah, yeah, I I was thinking when you were talking. I'm very visual and I was picturing everyone having their own jigsaw puzzle of self-care that they put together and figuring out what that looks like for them and recognizing it might change at times, but it's not just one thing. Yes, it doesn't necessarily have to be expensive, and it's not optional and it's not a luxury, it's a necessity.
Nancy Ho:Correct it is. There's no two ways about it, for sure, all right, that's why I say the first thing is again, it's back to self-management right. And then back to what we talk about role model.
Dr. Leah OH:Right, because people look up to the person who's like wow, what did you do?
Nancy Ho:I mean, I'm glad to say that my fan club are people in their 30s. They often look at me. Oh God, nancy, when I'm your age, I want to be like you.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, I'm in line.
Nancy Ho:So I think that's the most important thing. People look up to you, not because they you're flaunting your authority, you're flaunting your power. Power to me also means right, how you carry yourself, not the title itself yeah, although that helps, but that's not the title itself. That people have this big title but then they are not respected, they are not loved in the sense that you know, while they're in that position, other people can't do anything about it. But condition change and it can, yes, and you're seeing that. And when the condition change, you see how things just flip around yeah, oh, excellent, I really.
Dr. Leah OH:You know I'm thinking about influence, influence instead of authority, right?
Nancy Ho:yes, correct, correct, that influence, just like how? Again, how many times did I mention mr lee kuan yew? Right see, because of the influence in my life. So it's gone, I think 15 years already. It still continues to be that role model. Not that I want to imitate, I don't but emulate the qualities, the good qualities that I want to emulate.
Dr. Leah OH:Yes, yes, and that leads us. I was thinking about success stories, then, and I'm wondering if you have, you know, one that you can share, of a client or someone that you've seen that you're really proud of, of how they've kind of moved from where they were when they first came to you to a place where they found some harmony or they found the ability to integrate much, much better.
Nancy Ho:Absolutely. She's in her 40s. So when she first came to me, I mean high fly and everything it says. In fact, it was so bad that she says that I can't manage my life anymore. All right that I only have 24 hours, but I have got a mother that won't spend time. I've got my two children.
Nancy Ho:She's a divorcee, all right, but has a partner with her. Okay, and she's she's not um negative or she has any problem with the divorce because she thinks that's really a good decision and she has a good partner. So, so she, I've a big job and everything else. But she says my time, my God, I'm into pieces, right, forget about joy. She just don't even know she wakes up to what purpose. So I ask her about purpose. She says forget about purpose. I'm waking up to fulfilling all my roles, okay, as a leader, as a mother, as a partner, you know, as a daughter. I just wake up to just making sure that all these roles are fulfilled.
Nancy Ho:And she's very responsible and I mean good and bad. Right, when you're so responsible, then she'll beat herself up. If something just goes a little bit misaligned, like, say, example, she has this. Yeah, a little bit misaligned, like, say, example, she has this two teenagers, teenagers being teenagers She'll blame herself, right, if only I could be there, you know, I said even you're there or not? Right? That's going to happen, it's going to happen, it's going to happen. Anyway, I don't want to go into details. So she was all over the place and miserable. Good looking girl, you know, but she's really looking haggard and all that. So, um, I did what I said early on right, deep dive into the course. Right, having strategy. You know, making that shift. She see the light, she makes the improvement. A whole self-management thing. Today, she has time, sarah, she has time to start with, she has time.
Nancy Ho:Right, she has more time. Put it this way, she has more time to look after herself, ie exercises. She has time to exercise in the morning, she used to tell me. I used to tell her do you exercise? I used to. You know, just think I used to. I said why not now?
Nancy Ho:I've got no time, I said, yeah, of course you have time. Sure, I'm not asking you to go to the gym for two hours. Right, you can even do a 20 minutes a half an hour. I have my own home gym. I don't go to the gym out there anymore. I have my own home gym. So, like I said, the integration. So now she's so well integrated and in she's so well integrated and in fact, um, it's recently promoted to another, another rank, and it's not just the power that she's been promoted, but she feels good. Now she has that so-called authority, not the authority and the power to to flaunt or just show off, but really to um impact on the organization yeah yeah so this is, this is, this is beautiful, this is beautiful, and that is.
Nancy Ho:That is a really beautiful, yeah.
Dr. Leah OH:So, nancy, I have two final questions for you, and they go together, and the way I end all of the episodes of the communicative leader is to ask for advice or a challenge or a tip. So the first part is for our titled leaders, our managers, directors, and then the second part is advice or a tip or a challenge for employees of all ranks, across all industries.
Nancy Ho:Sure, I kind of mentioned that already. What a title to leaders, right, that you do not go about. First you know uh, in your, in your life, look, expecting people to live in your world. I think that's the most fundamental. Yeah, right, I'm not saying we should live in their world, but to understand their world. So when you're able to understand their world you're able to communicate effectively. I say this most times Don't give people what you think they want. Give people what they want. Most leaders with good intention give people what they think they want, think they want. It's hard to work that way, but when you understand their world, then you can give them what they want and shape them to that common, that big know uh goal, so to speak. So when I do a goal setting thing, I mean we know about smart goal, okay, I mean that's not, that's a good one. But the one that I prefer is called pact. P-a-c-t pack comes with purpose. P stands for purpose. So purpose first, first yeah, then action Okay, then commitment Okay, then timeframe Simpler and more humanizes it yeah.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah.
Nancy Ho:You know because purpose.
Dr. Leah OH:It's making notes Action. What do we do? Yeah?
Nancy Ho:What do we do, right? Yep, then we need to commit to it, right? Then, like all project management, there's a start date and end date, right? So-called start date, end date, you know? So I use the pact as well. So, with this lady I mentioned, I use this pact for her. So that's why she's able to, like, integrate her whole work-life thingy. Yeah, so I kind of mentioned that. And of, of course, for the employees, right, yeah, we um, maybe a little bit firm.
Nancy Ho:I always often say to them all, right, when I like the ceo that to, in order to assist him people, so I train these people too. So I always, always tell them I said, you know, if you think you are better than your boss, then you be the boss. I know it's a bit firm, it's a bit tough, but it's a fact. It's important too. Yeah, I mean, be the boss, go be the boss. But if you, for whatever reason reason and I'm not looking down at them, whether not now, or you are not in that position, you're not in that capacity, whatever, that means.
Nancy Ho:Be a good follower first, yeah, sure, do, do, set boundaries, do even challenge some things. You hear that is not right. So I'm not expecting them to be a doormat. But of course, when I say challenge, I don't mean that defining. You know, uh, going against and having a conflict. But challenges like uh, I beg to disagree because X, y, z and they hear what they come from, because you can have a wrong perception about it. Stand up for your rights while respecting again the objective, the goal and the authority and power of your leader. They got a reason why they say what they say, they got a reason why they want this direction and that direction. But, like I said, you know you don't need to be a doormat. Yes sir, yes sir, yes sir, you know I'm not suggesting that.
Nancy Ho:Yeah, yeah, but then there's no point to challenge in your own mind the quiet quitting as. I said earlier on All right. And the person is not effective. So even for the employees, also the self-management. I say that to employees all the time Nobody is indispensable, but you can make yourself very wanted.
Dr. Leah OH:Yes, ta-da Right, very wanted. Yes, ta-da Right. Yep, exactly so, when you're very wanted you're so valued.
Nancy Ho:You have no issue about this redundancy, because they literally back you. Please stay.
Dr. Leah OH:Yes, exactly.
Nancy Ho:But people don't look into that. Instead, they want to fight. I say what are you fighting? What are you fighting? You're not even prove yourself. How do you fight? There's not enough bullets for you to fight because you don't have the capacity. So how do you negotiate? It's part of negotiation communication negotiation communication.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, and I love that you. Yeah, it's so helpful in raising up the idea of being a good follower. We spend so much time as a society and saying be a good leader, do this and do that, but we don't talk about that responsibility that followers also have and that they need to be a partner. And you're right, it is definitely not being a doormat, but it's being accountable and coming to the table ready with ideas, not just critiques.
Nancy Ho:All right? Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And it's always good to make a boss look good, not in a flattery way, but again, and the goal and the achievement all right.
Dr. Leah OH:So that was um, yeah, yeah, so that's important. I was gonna say my first day of my first kind of grown-up job, my senior colleague but was like your job is not on this piece of paper, your job is to make her, or make Pam, look good. That is your job and it was really helpful and it was just so explicit and so clear and it was, you know, at the perfect time in my career, brand new and thinking about it through that lens. Yeah, so when I was much younger, right and thinking about it through that lens.
Nancy Ho:Yeah, so when I was much younger, right, I always make the boss look good and even now, when I, you know, work with my clients, like I said, you know, to help them and help their people, I make them look good.
Dr. Leah OH:Yes, oh, 100%, I have no doubt.
Nancy Ho:Yeah, so that's important.
Dr. Leah OH:Excellent. Well, Nancy, thank you so much. I genuinely enjoyed this conversation. I've learned so much. I have showing her my pages of notes that I have taken during our conversation and I know that this conversation is going to be very, very helpful for so many of our listeners. And again, thank you for sharing your time and expertise.
Nancy Ho:My pleasure and, of course, I'm always open to conversation. All right I love to have conversation with people, and that's not necessarily that they have to be my client, because if I can't even just, you know, do my little bit, that the shift that somebody can make, whether they are my client or they become my client, they are not. That's what I am for, or rather I serve my purpose in this lifetime.
Dr. Leah OH:Thank you, excellent. Thank you, nancy, thank you All. Right, my friends. That wraps up our conversation today. Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose. I'm looking forward to chatting with you again soon on the Communicative Leader.
