The Communicative Leader
On The Communicative Leader, we're making your work life what you want it to be. Do you need years of training or special equipment? Not at all my friends. Simple, yet thoughtful changes in your communication can make great strides in displaying your leadership ability. And why the heck should you care about leadership communication? Well, communication is the yardstick others use to determine whether or not they see you as a leader. Ahhh don't be scared, I got you. We will walk through common organizational obstacles and chat about small, but meaningful communication-rooted changes you can integrate immediately. No more waiting for the workplace to become what you hope it will. Nope. You, my friends, will be empowered and equipped to make those changes. Let's have some fun! Can't get enough?
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The Communicative Leader
The Connection Code: Elevating Leadership Through Relationships and Emotions
In this conversation, Owen discusses the significance of relational and emotional leadership, particularly in the context of men's emotional development. He emphasizes the importance of somatic awareness and authentic connections in leadership roles. Owen shares insights on transforming traditional leadership styles from a commanding approach to one that fosters connection and vulnerability. He provides practical steps for leaders to enhance their communication and connection with others, ultimately leading to a more engaged and productive workplace.
Hey leader! Thanks for listening. For more leadership communication tips, check out https://www.thecommunicativeleader.com/
Dr. Leah OH (00:01.159)
and thank you for joining us today on the communicative leader. I'm really excited to learn more about what you do. And before we kind of dive into that, can you give us a little bit of your background? So, you know, you're an expert in relational leadership, particularly in regards to men's emotional leadership training. So just a little bit to help us understand kind of how you got there and you know, the passion for this.
Owen (00:27.086)
I pretty much got here because I needed to get here. it was driven by my need to learn to, you know, not just communicate, but really I think this is probably where you're going with your communication skills. It's to really connect and relate to people and specifically, you know, the impetus for me to start working with men 30 years ago was that, I realized my relationships with women were more bad, but they weren't where I wanted it.
Dr. Leah OH (00:30.71)
Hehehe.
Owen (00:56.408)
to be and I needed to up my game and I decided that maybe working with men would help that. And one thing led to another and I didn't think it would end up being a business of mine. But it has just because particularly a man I find that I wasn't, I thought it was, but I wasn't the only one. And we were lacking a lot of these skills primarily for two reasons. One, we weren't taught them or we didn't have models how to be authentically
present or communicate or connect with people as a man and also the stress and trauma that we've all endured.
Dr. Leah OH (01:32.647)
Yeah. Yep. Yeah. And that's incredible, especially, I mean, it's something that people, especially men are starting to talk about embrace now, but I can't even imagine 30 years ago, how, how much of a unicorn that would have been. So thank you for, for leaning into that and being such an early adapter of that, a leader of that. So when we, know, a lot of what you do is relational leadership and you also bring in emotional leadership.
So I'm wondering if we can kind of start with some definitions about what you see, you know, how do you define relational leadership as how it relates to executive coaching and then relatedly, how do we bring in the emotional leadership aspect as well?
Owen (02:18.02)
you know, one way to look at it is if, if I'm going to have a, you know, a deep serious, you know, Connected connection or conversation with you. I need to be present and to be present. need to in some ways be aware of my own experience. And I was a great example in part because of my Asperger's of being really disconnected and not aware of my own somatic or body experience or emotional experience or relational experience.
And so the more a person, in my case, it's usually men, but not entirely, can be aware of his or her own experience, few things happen. By doing that, I feel safer because in a threat response, which is a survival or stress response, our orientation is external as it should be. But as we can bring our focus internally and not a hundred percent, but at least peripherally,
to our own experience, we're telling our body, which means our emotions and certainly our conscious mind, that we're safe. And right there, we down regulate and the work of Stephen Porges and Pauli Bagel theory and all his work with co -regulation tells us that when we're feeling safe, our non -verbals, the voice, the body movement and the micro movements of our face and the little muscles of our face tells the other person,
Dr. Leah OH (03:35.643)
Mm -hmm.
Owen (03:43.668)
that were not a threat. So the other person down regulates and starts to feel safe and probably starts to display those same nonverbal signs and I start to feel safe. So you get this co -regulation or co -connection using some of those mirror neurons. so, you know, as we all know, a lot of that communications happens nonverbally. And so we're picking all this up nonverbally and some unconsciously, which allows for a deeper connection.
Dr. Leah OH (03:52.241)
Mm -hmm.
Yep.
Dr. Leah OH (04:00.76)
Mm -hmm.
Owen (04:13.548)
beyond just the words we're saying.
Dr. Leah OH (04:16.239)
Yeah. Gosh, I love that. And I'm just thinking about being in a workplace when my, my leader just does that. Right. That's, again, a workplace that I would feel really comfortable in or recommending anyone to work in. And unfortunately, no, that's not usually the case. but you know, when, when people like you are doing this work, it is my hope that with time, this starts to become more of the norm rather than,
the rarity that we're seeing. And thank you for those really detailed definitions and descriptions. It's really helpful. So, and my next question was thinking about this focus on men's emotional leadership development. And you've kind of already touched on that in your introduction. But I was kind of wondering then if we already know what brought you here, you know, at what point or when did you start to realize like,
This is going to be a business. is my passion. This is more than just me learning more to become a better communicator and kind of flipping the switch to, can help other people do this as well.
Owen (05:28.398)
Yeah, that's a good question. I started out almost 50 years ago in the integrated medical community and I had an integrated medical clinic in Scottsdale and on that. And then in 95 is when it got into all this and I just wanted a men's group, just had real authentic friends. And I did some in Arizona, California, and then I moved out to North Idaho and did something there. And then 20 years ago, said, you know,
this model is really not working for me and maybe not for everyone. So I took a lot of what I studied back in the late seventies and on and applied in my clinic, which is more the somatic work and changed the model of what a men's group would be asked 11 guys. They all said yes. And then, no, I got to show up and create stuff. I did. And that group is still in existence. Even though I'm not there anymore, I'm actually in a,
Dr. Leah OH (05:58.673)
Mm
Dr. Leah OH (06:18.693)
Yeah.
Owen (06:26.51)
one of their satellite groups, which is Zoom group for the expats, but we have 60 guys in a group and the group has had over 500 guys in 20 years as part of this group. A documentary film done on the group and my work and it has generated three businesses and now it's my third business. But about 15 years ago, the word got out that we were doing something that was unique. Men and other groups started coming to us and wanted to learn.
Dr. Leah OH (06:29.223)
Mm
Dr. Leah OH (06:37.191)
Wow.
Dr. Leah OH (06:49.392)
Mm -hmm.
Owen (06:54.05)
know what we were doing or can you teach me to do it for my group? And I started traveling and doing that. And then it gradually just became a business. And then, you know, when I helped start Avery man and brought all my technology or knowledge and created that company, it really took off. then the turn of the end of last year, I started meld and really dialed in more of the science and the application of
Dr. Leah OH (06:58.876)
You
Dr. Leah OH (07:07.13)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (07:16.519)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Owen (07:23.564)
but we were seeing was really working.
Dr. Leah OH (07:26.055)
Yeah, that's incredible. I really love that it came from the demand from people around you, know, word of mouth and saying, this is really, really special. This is something that you need to know. So this leads us then, I imagine that, you know, even with all of the great success stories and the positive word of mouth, I imagine there are some, especially with our culture that will say,
I don't need emotional leadership. don't need relational leadership. I need to be the loudest voice in the room or that would make me appear as weak to my people. So what are some of these misconceptions that you encounter? So about either emotional leadership, relational leadership, especially among men in leadership positions.
Owen (08:13.983)
They don't usually say at least days directly, but yeah, you're right. think a lot of guys at least have that sort of cultural fear. one of our clients has been Google or Google X, which is their R and D division. And several years ago, when, know, when they were looking at bringing us in, we talked to the CEO and his English dude. And he, he said, you know, this is all great, but what we really need is we need you to help our scientists ask for help because
Dr. Leah OH (08:20.231)
Mm
Owen (08:44.142)
and that's the guy thing. We don't ask for help. Yeah. That's some of the most brilliant guys in the country, in the world. And they're not asking for help because that's that masculine thing of, we don't ask for help, but as expected, once we started working with them individually, these guys are great. were brilliant, but they were really open and they wanted it. And so often what we see is, you know, in, in the environment out there in the culture, there's a lot of, particularly from men, these beliefs that we.
Dr. Leah OH (08:46.587)
Yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (08:50.449)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (09:02.193)
Mm
Owen (09:13.89)
We follow this subtle agreement. you know, the classic one is, you know, men aren't vulnerable, you know, to cry is show weakness, all that. But what we found over the, you know, the years of doing this, when you create a space for men, which is really pretty simple, just like, you know, what happens here stays here kind of thing. And now we're doing it in COVID settings, but I know in, in just gender or men settings that men.
Dr. Leah OH (09:16.625)
Mm
Dr. Leah OH (09:33.862)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (09:41.851)
Mm -hmm.
Owen (09:43.032)
pretty quickly open up. know, it often takes one guy to take a little bit of a risk. And what happens is that man takes his risk. He says, or shares something that might be vulnerable. And rather than the typical cultural thing of directly or indirectly being shamed or just ignored because guys don't know what to do in this setting, the other men honor this man for his risk. And it might be in an emotional arena or just might be in a professional arena.
Dr. Leah OH (09:44.995)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (09:59.963)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (10:05.699)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Owen (10:11.756)
And then that man, really the whole group starts to realize that, these really are different rules of engagement. So I can lean in and then what often happens is we all know we tend to be little competitive. So they often see who can be the most vulnerable because it goes from, you know, I can't do this. I need to do this. I want to do it. And I can up upstage John right here. Right. Exactly.
Dr. Leah OH (10:11.963)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (10:32.547)
yeah. Yeah. Mm -hmm. Yeah. I might be the best. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. It's so, so it's, it's in a way taking these kind of pretty typical rules of engagement, but then we tweak them just a little bit and doing so open up just.
Like you're saying, this really nice safe space for more innovation and sharing and relationships, engagement, I imagine. So, yeah, excellent.
Owen (11:06.996)
yeah. Yeah. And, and one of the things that's a core of what we do is this communal aspect. We had the physiological aspect and we also have the communal aspect and the, you know, the peer to peer connection. And that really gets into attachment theory, which I know you know about, which basically says that as much as we're hardwired for survival, we're hardwired for connection. need connection. So these guys, and I was one of them, we need authentic connection and we don't have it. And the stats and
Dr. Leah OH (11:23.259)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (11:31.74)
Mm -hmm.
Owen (11:35.478)
now more people are aware of it. As men get older, we have less and less authentic connections. we have, as our surgeon general says, an epidemic of isolation. And that's particularly true for men.
Dr. Leah OH (11:46.949)
Yep. Mm hmm. Yeah. And so now I'm wondering, I was intrigued and preparing for our conversation about the somatic aspect. So you talk about the somatic awareness as part of your approach. And can you kind of tell us how this concept plays a role in relational and emotional leadership and why it's important?
Owen (12:10.862)
you know science is telling us now And you know, and it's yeah that we're a little you know, 50 years ago But now, you know, I think we hit critical mass with somatic somatic therapy is probably the hottest therapy for therapists to learn these days because when I was learning it, you know back in the late 70s, you know, we were way under fringe it was weird and it's like there's nothing to it. It's stupid and New agey and all that now. It's it's the hottest therapy because it works but one reason it works is that
Dr. Leah OH (12:23.441)
Mm
Dr. Leah OH (12:37.883)
Mm -hmm.
Owen (12:41.174)
You know, I think we all sort of know this, but science supports it is that when we have an experience, it's a first of somatic or physical experience. And so, you know, we have, we all know about the gut brain. So literally our gut responds and the rest of our body responds. And it's not much different than, know, when you touch something that's hot, you're taking your hand away before you even know it's hot before your brain knows it's hot. So that kind of hard wiring we all have. So.
Dr. Leah OH (12:50.971)
Mm
Dr. Leah OH (13:05.521)
them.
Owen (13:10.914)
we are responding, as I said earlier, unconsciously to our interactions. And then the next thing that happens is we might have an emotional awareness of it. That doesn't mean if we don't have an emotional awareness is that we're not having an emotional response. It's just, that means that we might be aware of her emotional response as we might be aware of her physical response. And then we might be aware of the thoughts. And that's usually where most of us start and stop is that we have these thoughts.
Dr. Leah OH (13:15.622)
Mm
Dr. Leah OH (13:28.175)
Mm -hmm. Yep.
Owen (13:39.212)
And then the thoughts could either be more coping mechanisms, survival mechanisms, reactionary things. You you're my boss and you're telling me something and I'm getting threatened and I got all these tapes running in my head, maybe from past trauma, past training, whatever. And I'm getting myself all jacked up and you're just trying to communicate with me and, and I'm tripping out.
Dr. Leah OH (13:59.803)
Mm
Mm -hmm.
Owen (14:04.364)
You know, if you're a good leader, you're sensing that and you're, you know, you're relaxed, you're down regulating and you'd maybe change your tact and have a different kind of conversation with me that directly or indirectly assures me that, you know, I'm safe and that, you know, whatever I might be thinking in terms of a threat, it's not a threat. And because so often what we do is we bring our past into these situations.
Dr. Leah OH (14:08.711)
Mm
Dr. Leah OH (14:22.108)
Mm
Owen (14:31.982)
And when we're under stress, it's like our skeletons from the closet that we thought we locked away start coming out and we start even unconsciously expressing them. So, yeah, what we're working with with men is getting them aware of all that. And rather than do it as a top down experience, we do it as a bottom up experience and we get them aware of the physiology first. And then once we go
there it's easy to be aware of the emotions and then what all that means.
Dr. Leah OH (15:05.191)
Yeah, yeah, that's really interesting because they with a somatic experience and you're talking about the the skeletons from the closet they're with you because they're living in the body, right? They're okay. Excellent. That was that was my understanding. So then and I'm wondering if you can share an example with us with a client or a group someone you worked with where you really kind of leaned more into helping them
process these somatic experiences or traumas so that they were able to be more present or more effective.
Owen (15:40.554)
yeah, I mean, that's essentially what I do. mean, sometimes it's very subtle. Just asking if you're say one of these guys and you're, and you're telling me or the group or whatever something. And, I'm sensing there's a little disconnection. you know, I essentially, what I do is sort of slow you down. And one of the ways I slow you down to back you up, I might ask you later, you know, what do you feel in your body? I mean, I noticed you're shaking your head and you know, and as you do that,
Dr. Leah OH (15:43.921)
Mm
Owen (16:08.108)
You know what's happening and you know, I know that you're Hypo aroused or stressed now, but so what I'll often do is get the man a real to realize or experience what his body's expressing because his body's expressing an unconscious experience that he's unaware of. So as he starts to become aware of it, something shifts in him. Like I said earlier, he's going to be he's going to start to feel safer.
Dr. Leah OH (16:21.735)
Hmm.
Owen (16:34.742)
And then, know, he's going to be aware of his body. And that's usually not a threat for a man to be aware of his body. And so we might help him be aware of his body for a few minutes or just simple questions that, know, he can answer. Like, you know, one of the simplest things like in a group of guy might start talking and start saying, telling a story or whatever. one of the guys in the group might say, Hey, Joe, you're losing me. know, great story. It's entertaining, but
Dr. Leah OH (16:38.768)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (17:00.901)
Mm -hmm.
Owen (17:02.744)
but I'm sort of spacing out because I don't feel you. I you're just telling a story and maybe it's a story you've told yourself or others hundreds of times. I want to really feel you. And the guy goes, okay. And you know, he often in the beginning, he needs a little guidance, which gets into, you know, making him aware of his body. And when he starts to connect to what's behind his story, like a feeling, his whole expression shifts his, his...
Dr. Leah OH (17:05.947)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (17:13.628)
Yep.
Dr. Leah OH (17:19.675)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (17:26.509)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Owen (17:31.928)
communication shifts and it's congruent. And when we have congruency, as you know, we have rapport. And so it's not that he's lying to us before, but he's telling a story and his body and his emotions are having a different experience.
Dr. Leah OH (17:37.351)
Mm -hmm. Yep.
Dr. Leah OH (17:48.069)
Yeah, so then you're able to show up as your whole self rather than just the story that isn't landing.
Owen (17:55.338)
And the other person trusts you more and you're more congruent and you're building rapport. And at the end of the day, you both are going to be more creative because when, if I'm that guy's checked out and I start to check in, I, and I down regulate what happens when I'm relaxed or I feel safe. I have much more access to all my resources. And one of the resources is creativity.
Dr. Leah OH (18:10.353)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (18:18.809)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's excellent. That's a perfect segue because I was looking at your work and I know authenticity is another major theme. So how can leaders, especially men in traditional business environments, how do they cultivate a sense of authenticity in their leadership or just their, you know, their peer connections?
Owen (18:41.022)
yeah, it's to some extent, maybe understanding the model we're talking about, but more it's being willing to be authentic with your own experience. Again, could start with a physical. And what I tell guys is the way to learn it is on the long tail. And it's pretty much true within learning anything. I mean, if you, if I'm to train you to play basketball, I'm not going to give you a ball and put you on a court with a team of accomplished players.
Dr. Leah OH (19:09.895)
You
Owen (19:10.678)
I'm going to build on this particular skills when you can just work on a skill, you're not stressed and then bring them all together and then put you on the court. And so for guys, I say, look, if this is a big lift for you, practice some of the skills we teach by yourself or in our groups, which are safe or in minimally stressful situations until you get the confidence and it starts to be consciously on.
Dr. Leah OH (19:36.807)
Mm
Owen (19:39.544)
competent where you're doing it unconsciously and then we'll start to happen is when the stress starts to be more Either you'll be doing it naturally or you'll realize I'm stressed out where I never would have realized before I know what to do about that. I can just Slow down take a breath feel my body Make eye contact Maybe say something that's a little vulnerable like I'm just confused right now
Dr. Leah OH (19:40.558)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (19:52.173)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (19:59.611)
Mm -hmm.
Owen (20:09.388)
You know, there's a lot of little cues that down regulates connects us and not only to our own experience, but to the other person.
Dr. Leah OH (20:09.518)
Mm
Dr. Leah OH (20:18.875)
Yeah, it's the way I'm hearing this is it really becomes a new way of showing up and being present and experiencing.
Owen (20:31.254)
It is, and often guys come to us because they're working more on their intimate relationship and maybe the relationship with the family or kids. But they're definitely, because most of my coaching clients are entrepreneurs and some like C -level executives. Within a few months, those relationships at home turn a corner. And then they start to see without much effort that it's starting to change the relationships at work. And then they want to work more on that. It's like, all right.
Dr. Leah OH (20:34.311)
Mm
Dr. Leah OH (20:37.531)
Mm -hmm. Yep. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (20:44.281)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (20:51.889)
We have.
Dr. Leah OH (20:59.803)
Mm -hmm.
Owen (21:00.366)
I'm getting the basic skills. How do I adapt these skills in the work setting?
Dr. Leah OH (21:05.753)
Yeah, exactly. That's how I say communication is a yardstick others assess your leadership on. that communication becomes so much better when you are aware of those skeletons and what's going on in your body. So, and let's think about some practical steps. So if someone is listening and they're like, okay, they're making some connections. They are recognizing, okay, this is a place they want to explore.
What are some things that they could begin to do in order to be more present or to build better connections at work?
Owen (21:44.47)
Yeah, I think there's a lot of things someone can do. mean, one whole section is just getting your body more relaxed. The more you get rid of the chronic stress in your body and people have way more stress than they realize because what happens is there's an inverse relationship. The more tense we get, the less aware we are. and that's a lot of what I dealt with in my clinic, ravaged people, but also elite athletes and they tend to be actually more aware. so.
bodywork, yoga, meditation, I all of them, all those disciplines will help relax the chronic stress, make you more aware and innately give you skills. I I got into this with bodywork and, you know, my body changed tremendously, but at the end of the day, probably the biggest thing I got from it was I became aware of my own body and without my emotions. And so what happens when you have that skill,
Dr. Leah OH (22:25.787)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (22:37.915)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Owen (22:43.138)
You're not putting stress back in it. And, you know, one of the old stories I used to have with my clients is that, you know, they'd come in after a few sessions and go, you know, my shoulders, my neck's bothering me. I, and I'd laugh. I'd said, look, it wasn't that problem. This problem. was your shoulders that are really the tighter part because that's where you put your stress. Now that you're more aware, you're feeling it. And in the short term, that's not a good thing.
But in the long term, that negative feedback is going to change your behavior. So anything that teaches you how to know what you're doing is not working in the moment is great. And then, you know, one of the simple things I created is what I call the rock formula. And the rock formula is ROC and R is to relax. So we slow down to relax. The O is we open up to be vulnerable. When we open up to be vulnerable,
Dr. Leah OH (23:13.253)
Yum.
Dr. Leah OH (23:22.063)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (23:34.853)
Okay.
Owen (23:40.686)
to our own experience, which almost naturally happens when we slow down, but we also open up to be vulnerable to other people's experiences. You know, it could be compassion, it could be empathy. And then the C is we risk or reach out for connection and from that vulnerable place. And so when I connect to you or anyone and it's not like a big vulnerability, but just being aware of my own experience kind of vulnerability.
Dr. Leah OH (23:42.897)
you
Dr. Leah OH (23:56.016)
Hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (24:07.484)
Mm
Owen (24:11.186)
I'm gonna get a different level of connection.
Dr. Leah OH (24:15.567)
Yeah, yeah, that makes that makes so much sense. And I think this is, you know, a really nice lean into this next question that I have about transformation. And you talk about transforming clients from commanders to lighthouses. So can you talk to us about what that you know, what what does that look like? What is that idea there?
Owen (24:43.702)
A couple of things. mean, one of the tendencies we have, particularly with men, is that we like to give advice and we like to help and rescue and all those things, which, you know, it's not a bad thing, but that's our default. So one of the things I do, my partner's a couples therapist and we do couples trainings and retreats. We're doing one in Costa Rica in a few months. And inevitably, you know, I sit with a guy and he's really trying to communicate. I mean,
to his wife that he loves and it's not working. He's using all these emotional words and she's getting more distance, more piss, maybe sadder or whatever, because it's not happening. And she sort of knows he's trying and she knows in some level he feels it, but she's not feeling it. And he's getting frustrated and you know how all that goes. So I sit next to Joe and I say, Joe, can I help? He goes, yeah, yeah, help me. And I go, all right.
Dr. Leah OH (25:20.359)
huh.
Dr. Leah OH (25:39.238)
You
Owen (25:42.03)
Can I just sort of channel what I think you're really feeling? So I just take a moment and sort of get a sense of what he's feeling. And I look at his partner and I start speaking from that place of being connected. Feeling and speaking from the feeling, not my head, but from the actual experience. And inevitably within 15 seconds, 30 seconds, her whole physiology shifts. Sometimes she starts crying because
Dr. Leah OH (26:00.123)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (26:08.357)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Owen (26:11.018)
She knew he felt that, but until I said it, she couldn't feel it. And then I go, and he's going, he's just jaws dropping. He's going, yeah, yeah, that's what I'm feeling. I go, okay, Joe, you're going to say this. And I guide him. And so particularly as guys, we don't know how to step out of using these emotional languages and fixing and giving advice and just slow down, listen to the person, let that input be felt, not just heard.
Dr. Leah OH (26:13.115)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (26:17.006)
Yep.
Dr. Leah OH (26:21.36)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (26:31.569)
Mm -hmm.
Owen (26:40.812)
not just thought about, but felt and get the full experience and respond with the full experience. And when we do that, what happens is, and this is what I teach men to do, is that you're not giving suggestions, you're guiding, you're mentoring. And specifically in our work, what I have men do is take the man deeper into his experience. Because it's my experience that if I'm working with you, that you have all the resources you need.
Dr. Leah OH (26:40.999)
Mm
Dr. Leah OH (26:47.003)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (26:58.321)
Mm -hmm.
Owen (27:10.796)
That said, because of stress, trauma training or lack of training or whatever, some of these resources are disconnected from you. But when you're relaxed, they start to come back. And so if I can sort of take you deeper into your experience, get you more relaxed and help you connect to things that you haven't been connected to, you'll start to solve the problem yourself. And so you're really getting behind that person being his own commander or her being his own commander.
Dr. Leah OH (27:21.585)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (27:28.465)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (27:33.607)
Mm
Dr. Leah OH (27:40.112)
Yeah.
Owen (27:41.495)
and succeeding on their own. And then they learn that, they embody it, and you don't have to keep teaching it.
Dr. Leah OH (27:46.765)
Mm hmm. Yeah. So, I was thinking of my next question is about resources and tools. And we've kind of talked about these feedback mechanisms like yoga and meditation, but you're just mentioning how some of our resources through time and chronic stress and trauma, they kind of go offline until we can find a way to reset them. I don't know if that's the right term, but
Owen (28:14.424)
No, that's a way to...
Dr. Leah OH (28:15.737)
Is that a good term? Okay. So I'm wondering if you can kind of help us think through and again, any, any, suggestions you have for us, you know, in addition to those you shared, and some of this might be the work that you're doing with meld or your other companies or other books or practices, but how does someone listening if again, taking those kind of first steps to say, yeah, there's a lot going in here. I'm bringing this around with me. This is.
you know, impeding my ability to make connections. So where, do they start?
Owen (28:51.468)
Yeah, it's, I mean, I there's a lot of ways to start. you can start with, know, your primary partner and, know, maybe ask that person for feedback. you can, you know, ask for friends for feedback. that's one way to approach it. Another way is, developing what I would call a mindfulness witness. So, you know, having this sense of dual attention. you, you you still have everything that you normally have. It's when I get rid of that.
So your mind still does what it does, but you start training yourself through your body, through your emotions or whatever of of what's what's sort of the undercurrent experience you're having. Again, you're probably not going to be all that good at it in a more stressful or demanding situation. But, you know, in the light conversations with people, you know, listening to what you're saying, sort of listening to what the other person's saying for the emotional content.
And so you say something to me and it's like, what does it feel like? What's my, how my body, how does it respond? mean, one of the easiest things to sense is am I leaning in? I, do I, do I want more connection? You you engage in me, do I feel safe or, you know, am I going into some kind of survival response, which is either going to be some often a subtle form of fight, flight or freeze where I'm going to, you know,
basically be trying to get out of this. And the thing is, it might not be anything that you're doing in a specific way. It might be my reaction because maybe, you you just said some that unconsciously reminded me of my mother saying those things, which I never liked and couldn't do anything about. And then you start to develop more and more refinement. And so you start to realize that you can call it intuition, but you start to realize
Dr. Leah OH (30:33.959)
Mm -hmm.
Owen (30:43.4)
where my unconscious or emotional response is coming from. And once you start to get to that level of awareness, you got choice.
Dr. Leah OH (30:51.333)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, that's excellent. So, so fascinating. And I love that we're bringing this into the workplace because I think for so long it has been church and state very firmly separated. And that hasn't done a lot of people a lot of good in my opinion. So, Owen, my last two questions for you. They're,
They're tied together and this is the way we end all of our episodes of the communicative leader. So I like to leave listeners with, you know, a pragmatic leadership or communication tip. It can be an advice, it can be in a challenge. So the first bit will be for our titled leaders out there. And then the second, you know, piece of advice or challenge will be for employees of all ranks across all industries.
Owen (31:42.088)
I think in general, I would just say connect risk connection. and by that, mean, risk, risk, a more authentic connection. And we all hunger for authenticity and some people might call it vulnerability and then might have some of that, but this quality of being real. and so if you're in a interaction as the boss or as the employee,
what would be one thing you could do or say that might be a little risky, but would be more authentic. And it's like putting a pebble into a compound and just letting the ripples go where they may. And just notice, notice your own experience doing it and notice the experience of the other person. And so often that just shifts the whole conversation into a...
into a more authentic conversation, but into a conversation that's going to be more productive.
Dr. Leah OH (32:43.783)
Yeah, and I like that you notice too and you raise up the point that it doesn't take much to kind of transform those relationships or those connections.
Owen (32:55.63)
And I've seen myself, but really with all these men I've helped in different contexts, they come back and they apply something like this and they're blown away or how well it worked with their employees or their peers or maybe a client or a boss or whatever, where they shift the relationship rapport. Cause we all are human and on some level we want authentic connection.
Dr. Leah OH (33:00.753)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (33:07.217)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (33:15.341)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (33:22.759)
And Owen, is that advice for mostly our friends entitled leadership positions? Do you think it would fare the same for an employee who is not in a title position, but just interested in a stronger workplace connections?
Owen (33:40.386)
Yeah, I'm thinking of a fellow that I've helped that is an employee and he's going to be in management because he's doing this.
Dr. Leah OH (33:50.173)
Mm -hmm, yep.
Owen (33:51.84)
And you know, it's got work went from stressful to more enjoyable for him. And he's getting noticed because he's showing up in this authentic, powerful way. And he's leading without even trying to be a leader. So they're going to make him a manager.
Dr. Leah OH (34:03.493)
Yep. Yeah. Cause I think I'm, I'm just laughing too. Cause it's, it's, but communication, right? feel like for a long time, leadership communication has been on the fringe compared to more of a management or psychological perspective. But when you're showing up as a whole self and making those authentic connections, when people know they can trust you, that you are going to be honest with them.
then that is really transformative in what that can do in a workplace.
Owen (34:35.97)
Yeah, like we helped him not confront his boss, but speak up to his boss. And she loved it. She loved it. And that was a big thing of like, you're showing up as a leader because people want that.
Dr. Leah OH (34:44.443)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (34:51.277)
Mm -hmm. Yes, exactly.
Owen (34:54.062)
And that that imbues the sense of ownership and you know, as an employer, I want my my people to have ownership and you know, I want to support that. And with that, yeah, we're all going to make mistakes. But more than that, we've got to take risks.
Dr. Leah OH (35:02.662)
Mm
Dr. Leah OH (35:07.975)
Mm
Mm -hmm. Yep, and we're gonna be a better collective when we're all embodying leadership.
Owen (35:17.784)
Yeah. And, to just sort of circle around, I think the leader needs to be the leader in embodying leadership, taking risks, being willing to make mistakes, own the mistakes. So he or she sets the bar for everyone else. And, know, as kids, we learned these or didn't learn them because our parents were doing it. And now not that the leader is the parent, but it's analogous where, you know, we're going to take our lead from the person in authority.
Dr. Leah OH (35:20.795)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (35:25.852)
Mm
Dr. Leah OH (35:33.031)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (35:39.452)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (35:44.519)
Yep, 100%. Some people always ask, is there one tip? I'm like, model it, model it. It's the best thing you can do.
Owen (35:50.019)
Yeah.
And with that, you're not going to get it perfect, but that's part of the modeling because when they see your imperfection, that gives them a lot more authority to lean in and not work on being perfect.
Dr. Leah OH (35:54.939)
Mm -hmm. Yep. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (36:05.953)
Exactly. Owen, thank you so much for sharing your expertise. I love what you're doing. And I think it's so important that we're integrating these somatic experiences as vulnerability and putting it hand in hand with leadership where it belongs. So thank you again for joining us today.
Owen (36:26.594)
You're welcome. It's been my honor to be here.
Dr. Leah OH (36:30.361)
Perfect.
