The Communicative Leader
On The Communicative Leader, we're making your work life what you want it to be. Do you need years of training or special equipment? Not at all my friends. Simple, yet thoughtful changes in your communication can make great strides in displaying your leadership ability. And why the heck should you care about leadership communication? Well, communication is the yardstick others use to determine whether or not they see you as a leader. Ahhh don't be scared, I got you. We will walk through common organizational obstacles and chat about small, but meaningful communication-rooted changes you can integrate immediately. No more waiting for the workplace to become what you hope it will. Nope. You, my friends, will be empowered and equipped to make those changes. Let's have some fun! Can't get enough?
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The Communicative Leader
From Catastrophe to K2 - Breaking Boundaries, Resilience, and Leadership: A Conversation with Jenn Drummond
Mountaineer Jenn Drummond shares her journey from finance executive to world record holder, revealing how a near-fatal car accident transformed her definition of success into one focused on experiences rather than achievements. Her powerful "people over peaks" philosophy guides her approach to leadership, family life, and setting world records.
• Discovered mountaineering after a life-changing car accident redirected her priorities
• Set the world record as first woman to climb all seven second summits
• Chose her team over her summit attempt on K2 after a tragic avalanche
• Developed "Break Proof" resilience strategies applicable to business and personal goals
• Approaches failure as an opportunity that often leads to unexpected positive outcomes
• Uses "acclimatization" as a metaphor for sustainable personal growth
• Transformed her approach to motherhood while pursuing world-class mountaineering
• Created intentional pattern interruptions like "trigger meditation" and "gratitude light"
• Emphasizes the importance of honesty in high-pressure communication
• Believes making challenging pursuits fun dramatically increases endurance
Jenn's book "Break Proof: Seven Strategies to Build Resilience and Achieve Your Life Goals" is available now wherever books are sold.
Hey leader! Thanks for listening. For more leadership communication tips, check out https://www.thecommunicativeleader.com/
Welcome to another episode of the Communicative Leader. I'm your host, Dr Leah OH, and today we have the honor of speaking with Jen Drummond, a pioneering adventurer, motivational speaker and the first woman to scale all seven summits of the world's second highest peaks. In this episode, entitled Breaking Boundaries, resilience and Leadership, we're going to dive deep into Jen's journey of transformation and the incredible power of resilience. Following a life-changing car accident in 2018, Jenn turned her challenges into catalysts for growth, embracing a journey that blends adventure with personal development. As the author of Breakproof Seven Strategies to Build Resilience and Achieve your Life Goals, Jenn shares her insights on cultivating resilience, leadership and the courage to pursue your dreams. Currently training to conquer Mount Denali this May, jen's experiences in mountaineering and business equip her to inspire individuals and teams to overcome obstacles and embrace their potential. In this conversation, she recounts her incredible journey, explains the strategies she developed to build resilience and sheds light on how to cultivate a fearless mindset in the face of adversity. Jen is a wealth of wisdom and just a whole lot of fun too. I really enjoyed this conversation and I know that you will as well. Let's dive in and have some fun.
Dr. Leah OH:Hello and welcome to the Communicative Leader hosted by me, Dr Leah Omilion- Hodges. My friends call me Dr OH. I'm a professor of communication and a leadership communication expert On the Communicative Leader. We're working to make your work life what you want it to be. Jen, welcome to the Communicative Leader. I'm so excited for our conversation today, but before we dive in, I was hoping you could share a bit about your background for our listeners. So, specifically, how did you get into mountaineering and what are some of your career highlights?
Jenn Drummond:Yeah. So I was in finance and ran a company there, hired myself out of a job so I could be a stay-at-home mom Once my kids got into school full-time. I was kind of like soul-searching what do I want to do now that I have some more free time ahead? And I actually got into a car accident that should have killed me and thankfully didn't, which sent me on this trajectory of, instead of maybe, success in the traditional sense. I was like I want to know what it feels like to swim in the Great Barrier Reef or to taste pasta in Italy, or to climb a mountain or like just more experience-based, and so I decided to climb a mountain for my 40th birthday. My son increased that goal to climbing Everest, and then my coach increased that goal to setting a world record. So things got big fast.
Dr. Leah OH:That is absolutely incredible and I love that it is so experience-based and not the oh, I've got to go from this position in the corporate hierarchy to this where it's like let's expand that.
Jenn Drummond:Yeah, definitely. I think it's just so easy to take society's definition of success and then we really just need to pause and be like well, what does it mean to me and what do I want my life to look like? Because I don't live on this planet forever, so how do I maximize my time here to live the best life that I feel?
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah. Yeah, that is beautiful, jen. So let's think about your leadership philosophy. So you are clearly a leader in both mountaineering and business, and I'm wondering how your leadership style, how this, has evolved over time and what are some of those principles that you consider foundational to your approach?
Jenn Drummond:Yeah, this has been tested multiple times, but I really feel I have the saying that people over peaks right. So when you're on the mountain, when you're building a company, when you're raising your family, just making sure you're always putting the people first. When I was climbing K2, which is one of the deadliest mountains in the world, we did. We had a tragedy, we had an avalanche. Take out one of my team members and you read about it, but you don't expect it to happen to you. And so this event happens. And I actually wasn't. I was a day ahead of the team at this point, so I wasn't at the scene of the accident. But I was given a choice to either continue to climb or to come back down. And I just remember sitting there thinking you know, I'm a day from the summit and I've been here for weeks and it's money and training and all the things, but there's no way I can climb this mountain Like I need to go down and take care of my team, like this mountain will always be here. I can always come back to climb it, but who I show up as is way more important than what I achieve. So how am I showing up?
Jenn Drummond:So I went down to take care of my team member and, you know, had like an impromptu funeral, flew home and my kids came home from camp a couple of days later and I'll never forget. They're like, mom, mom, did you summit? And I'm like, no, I didn't, but I had success. They looked at me confused, like what do you mean? And I'm like, well, success is how we show up. What people are going to remember about us, who we are as individuals, what our values are and are we going to live them when we're tested. And so I'm proud of the person that I showed up as. So to me, that's success. Like, well, you're going to have to go back and climb the mountain. I'm like, yeah, I am going to need to go back and climb the mountain, and that's okay because mountains will always be there. And so if we build companies or we lead where people know that they're more important than the peak or the profit that we're making, like the game changes.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what a beautiful thing to model for, of course, your team and for your children. And I think people underestimate how much that modeling kind of has roots and goes out, because then your kids too. They might not say people over peaks, but I'm sure you see instances when they're making that right choice, and your team members too, the way that they're showing up and caring for others. So I really want to raise up that amazing leadership example, jen.
Jenn Drummond:Yeah, thank you, thank you, Thank you.
Dr. Leah OH:So let's talk about your book. So Break Proof. Seven Strategies to Build Resilience and Achieve your Life Goals.
Jenn Drummond:Can you kind of talk us through the inspiration for this? Yeah, you know, I think what happens is you have this life-altering event, which for me was the car accident. For other people it could be like a job change or kids exiting the home or having kids. You know, like there's these pivotal moments in our lives that are like lines in the sand, and when I was building on this world record, I realized there's so many analogies from mountaineering that go into regular life and building a business, and so I wrote the book to the me before and just said, okay, listen, here's things that if you were to set out and start a company or build a family or you're going to achieve an Everest-like goal, there's these things that are going to happen on every journey and if you're prepared for them, then you're going to be better able to handle them. When it shows up You're like, oh okay, this is why I'm feeling this. Here's what somebody else did to get through this section. Maybe that will work for me.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, yeah, that is so powerful, those lessons you wish you knew, but then also helping people. You know it doesn't mean that moment is going to be magically easy or not feel like a challenge, but you're not blindsided, so going in, you're so much better positioned to be successful.
Jenn Drummond:Yeah, Well, just like, I think the unknown is scary, right. So when you have that unknown you're just like, ah, what do I do? But then if you read that unknown in somebody else's story, now you can reflect it into your own and you're like, oh, this is scary, but this is normal. And somehow normal makes it easier to metabolize.
Dr. Leah OH:Oh, a hundred percent. And when you're not alone like you say, it's more like. This is not just me and other people have overcome it. I remember my dissertation. It's just there's so much writing and it's at the end. But I would look at my faculty members on my committee and all my great professors. I'm like they did it. You can do this too. Doesn't mean it's going to be easy, but it is achievable.
Jenn Drummond:Yeah, no, definitely, and like one of the key points out of the book was big mountains take big teams right, Like I think we set these Everest like goals and expect ourselves to like get our buns up the mountain.
Jenn Drummond:Well, guess what? Like when I climbed Everest, I was shocked at how many people were part of that pursuit. Right, there's teams managing the ropes, there's team managing the tents, the food, the oxygen, the weather. There's so many people playing their little role that I have to wake up and just walk. Well, if I only have to wake up and walk and I don't have to consider the weather or the oxygen or the food or the tent or whatever, I have way more energy and it's a lot easier for me to climb because I'm not being pulled in all these directions. And so I just tell people, like, hey, when you hit that moment of frustration and you're trying to negotiate with yourself and say maybe I took on too big of a challenge, maybe you didn't, maybe you just need more people to help you get to the top of the mountain, yeah, that is so powerful.
Dr. Leah OH:And let's think about resilience, because I know in your book you discuss a number of strategies and I was hoping you could highlight a couple of these for us and kind of explain how we could use this professionally or even in our personal lives when things are feeling just too much yeah.
Jenn Drummond:You know, the big thing about resilience is always being able to come from our center right. So if you're coming from an exposed area and then you're going to keep going more exposed, it's hard to be resilient, because you're like on the branch of the tree instead of the trunk when you're climbing a mountain. There's this thing called acclimatizing, and so what happens when you acclimatize is that, like, so say, you're at Everspace Camp and you hike up to Camp 1. Well, when you get up to camp one, you're struggling, and the reason why you're struggling is there's not enough oxygen in the air for your body to operate and so you can't go any higher. Like you literally are telling your muscle I need to take a step, and the muscles like I'm not getting the signal right, I don't know what you're talking about. And so you sit like we'd get up to camp one, we would eat lunch and then we would go all the way back down to base camp, which at first is so disheartening. You're like no, no, no, like I'm going the wrong direction. What's going on? But here's the thing. Like you get back down to base camp and over the next three days that stress causes your body to physiologically change and it makes more red blood cells. So then after three days you go, hike up to camp one and you're like, oh, this isn't bad, I got this, we're good, this is easy. And then you get to camp two and you start feeling that feeling of exhaustion, like you're a little foggy in the brain and whatever. And you sit at camp two and you go all the way back down to base camp and that's the thing. Like we acclimatize.
Jenn Drummond:I think a lot of us think that we're going to set this goal and you just go from base camp to the top and that's what you do and it's not really how it works in life. Like, how it works in life is you get to this point where it's new territory or you're stretched to new, like edges, and you need to come back to the boardroom or to the kitchen or to the base camp and say what did I learn? What do I know now that I didn't know that I've been in that territory, and what can I implement and integrate? So when I go back there, I'm better and it's easier and I'm stronger, and that's resilience Like, resilience is being able to climb down, to climb up and not lose that momentum because you understand. It's part of the process.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, that is such a powerful illustration. And I imagine too, with every new mountain, every summit you reach, I imagine there are moments where, like you said disheartening and that's probably a very light word, a mild word You're like oh, we've gotten here, we got to go back down, but what a beautiful illustration for what that looks like across the board, for whatever that mountain is we're working toward.
Jenn Drummond:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dr. Leah OH:Wow, that's incredible, jen, and so, speaking of incredible as a first woman to conquer the seven second summits, what were some of the biggest challenges you faced during these climbs? And then after that? I'd love to hear about you know, how overcoming some of those challenges helped to shape or reshape your approach to life and leadership.
Jenn Drummond:Yeah, you know, I think we get married to concepts. So for me, my biggest struggle with setting this world record wasn't even the climbing the mountains, it was being away from my children and still being a good mom, yeah Right. So, like I had equated being a good mom with time with them, and the reality is is like there's people out there that are home full time with their kids, but when their kids are home, they're doing, you know, laundry or cooking dinner or putting it away, or they're really busy with a whole bunch of things. And so for me, I had to redefine what a good mom was, and in that redefinition I had to be like, okay, well, how am I going to be a present mom and do this athletic pursuit that's going to pull me out of the house for two weeks sometimes at a time. And so it just got really intentional with my time making sure I did one-on-one time with the kids, and there was no phone involved, there was no other activity involved. We were just very much talking to each other and building that relationship, and I had to realize like, hey, I'm going to do life in parallel with them, so they don't want to do their homework, I don't want to do my workout. Like we can talk about things that we both feel the same frustration. It just manifests a little bit different based on our ages and our activities that we're in.
Jenn Drummond:And so the interesting thing is is, like Everest was again. I wasn't afraid of the mountain, I was afraid of being away from home. And so then I, like you do all the things that a mom does, right, like you line up, help you get carpool figured out, here's what they're doing. You have like a 20 page document of like what to do while I'm gone, and that's day one, right, and here's how it's going to go down. And so then I go to the kid's school and I tell the teachers I'm like, hey, I'm going to be gone, I'm climbing Everest, I have everything lined up. But can you give my kids a little bit of grace? They might not be on their A game with things chicken up at home. And this teacher came back to me and she's like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. Would you mind coming in and talking to the kids about setting an Everest-like goal, like a hundred percent?
Jenn Drummond:So I went into the school, I helped the kids like set these goals. They colored little hikers and they had their flags, and the flags said I wanted to make like a black diamond ski team or I wanted to bike to grandma's or get an A on a test or whatever it was Right. And then in the front of the school we put this big mountain and we had a little hiker. That was me, because I had a tracking device on me so then the kids could track me and where I was going and what I was doing. And then at Everest Base Camp I had Wi-Fi so I could Zoom, call into the classrooms and talk to them about, like, what was working and what wasn't, and where I pooped and what I ate.
Jenn Drummond:You know, like and so like it was this thing where, sure, I wasn't the Pinterest mom or the PTA mom or the mom that like, made every single soccer game that season, but I was a mom who set goals and involved her kids and, like, the community got involved. So, when I climbed Everest, like my kids were so loved on and so seen and they felt the support of a community that if I'd been home probably wouldn't have been able to show up the same way that they did. And so it just, I think, for any of us setting goals or trying to achieve big things or leading a team, really question what your definition of that is and how can you expand that to include what you're doing and feel good about it.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, I love that I'm writing all of these notes down, jen. So I just I love that how integrated that you you brought your, your children and their school and your community into your goal setting and this giant undertaking and bringing in how to make your life parallel, like I don't want to do this workout, you don't want to do the homework, it's okay, cause a lot of times we just need someone to say like yeah, it feels really tough right now, or like that stinks, but we can still do this. And then the support, because, like you were saying before, I think, for whatever reason, it is so hard for us in this Western society to ask for support and to lean on it Right, like it's a four letterletter word.
Jenn Drummond:That's a terrible thing to say right. And it's crazy when you are willing to say here's where I'm at, here's what I'm trying to do, I'm not quite sure how to get there and I want things to be a certain way. Then other people get to step up and be like well, come in and talk about this or let's do that, or like it's amazing, when we're willing to be vulnerable with where we're like weak or concerned, how people can fill in the gaps.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, and I just keep thinking again modeling. So much of my brain is about modeling leadership. Right, because a lot of people say I'm not a leader, I'm like, but you are, whether you're acknowledging this and embracing it or not, but showing them the value of support, and not just your children and your family, but the whole school and what this means for the classmates and other families going through things, recognizing that if I say hey, we've got this or this, that people will show up and support and celebrate them.
Jenn Drummond:Yeah, most definitely. We love to cheer people on, right. I mean, it's such an honor. We forget that people love to cheer us on too.
Dr. Leah OH:Yes, yes. So let's shift gears a little bit and thinking about failure, which, for a lot of people, again another one of those four-letter words where a lot of people are like, oh, please don't say it. But we know that these can be really amazing opportunities for growth. And you know, every climb comes with risks and not all climbs are successful. And when I was getting ready for our chat, I was thinking what a great metaphor for life. But I was wondering if you could share a setback you experienced in climbing or your career, and of how you shifted that. How did you turn that into an opportunity for learning or growth?
Jenn Drummond:Yeah, I have the most amazing story that happened with failure One. There's failure all the time on the mountains. So I had to climb nine mountains to set this world record, because there's a dispute on continents. So when I climbed nine, it took three of them, took twice right, so I had to go back more than once to do them, just because of weather conditions or my friend that passed away in the avalanche and all the little variables that are outside of our control.
Jenn Drummond:The goal is always to come home right. When you're building a business, if you're launching a product, the goal is always come back and still have a business, even if the product doesn't go. And so for me, when I failed K2 and I needed to go back, I was not excited about going back. Now I had this negative experience. So not only do I have to go back into this harsh environment, but I have to overcome an experience that was not awesome and go make it different. And so, like I'm training, I'm training, I'm training, I'm doing all the things, even though I'm not a hundred percent engaged, because I'm just like I don't want to go, but I have to put myself in a position to go. So I'm going to keep doing the thing.
Jenn Drummond:And two weeks before I had to leave for this climb, I got a phone call. And the phone call was from an individual who had been training to climb the mountain but didn't have the resources to make it happen. And I'm like you know what. It's so easy for us to get these things in the United States. I'm happy to bring them over. I'll call my guide, we'll put you on my team. This will be fine. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so, all of a sudden, now I had a reason bigger than myself to go back, and this person was on my team and blah, blah, blah, blah blah. So I became the third American female to stand on top of K2 in 2022, which was super exciting.
Jenn Drummond:But even more exciting was, 30 minutes later, the first Pakistani female stood on top of our country's prize peak. I had met this individual the year before and we just stayed in touch on WhatsApp and I'm like you know just train like someday the opportunity will show up. So she had been training, and training, and training and did not have the financial resources or the things to be able to make that climb happen. And because I failed the first time and came back and knew her and was willing to go back and climb the failed mountain again. I got to be a part of her story, which was so much more significant than my own because I have twin daughters.
Jenn Drummond:I know how important it is for them to see people that look like them in these environments, because it creates this opportunity in their mind or curiosity gets planted. And so now there's a whole bunch of little Pakistani girls, a whole bunch of little Muslim girls all over the world that see somebody that looks like them on top of one of the most dangerous peaks in the world and it allows them to say like, wow, what is possible for me? And so like, failure a lot of times is just this thing that is either slowing us down to bring other people with us, causing us to be like, hey, maybe there's a redirect, or maybe we need to come back with more resources, more knowledge, a different day. It truly is a stepping stone on our journey, and when you can keep stories on speed dial of where failure has been actually a good thing for you, it allows it to be less overwhelming when it shows up again.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah yeah, I have goosebumps, john, in listening to that. And that last phrase let's keep a few stories of failure on speed dial because, you're right, these happen and they feel so big and we're like, of course I'm going to remember that feeling, but a lot of times we don't, because we kind of get lost, we get bogged down in the current failure or hardship or obstacle and we can't see clearly. So I love that idea of kind of keeping that on the ready, just in case to remind yourself that this is probably going to be a springboard. We might not see how now, but it's likely going to help us get a place we did not anticipate before.
Jenn Drummond:Yeah, definitely. You know, I always think of like the arrow and the bow right. It gets pulled back and then shot forward, and so just maybe we're in that section of being pulled back a second.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, oh, that's awesome, and so thinking about kind of diving more into this area. I want to think about risk and reward, and this is when we know you know, just like failure, a lot of people have a hard time with the word risk and the feeling of risk, and we know that what you do involves a significant level of risk. So I'm wondering, as someone who has probably made friends with risk and reward, I imagine, by this point how do you assess and manage your risk, both in climbing endeavors and even in business, and what advice do you have for others who are trying to figure out? How do I balance this? You know, taking risks but also making sure that I'm most likely positioned to come out okay on the other end.
Jenn Drummond:Yeah, yeah, yeah. The climbing metaphors are so easy, but we can apply these to business. So for me, when you're climbing, you always have to come home right. Getting to the top doesn't mean you won, like getting home means you won, and so the top is halfway right. So I think a lot of times, if we just think of risk and reward and we are checking in with ourselves, do I have enough runway to make it home? Do I have enough runway to make it home? And that's like a check-in we're always doing.
Jenn Drummond:The nice thing about climbing is you're climbing with ropes. So when you're climbing with ropes, that rope might be 120 feet long, okay, so the first person goes, they set the rope, and then the next person comes to them and now you have, like, all the rope together again. When you're together again, you're now at a position where is the weather still favorable? How are we doing energy wise? Do we have enough fuel? Do we have enough Like, is there enough daylight? It gives you this automatic check in before you go, pull the rope, taunt again for 120 feet and then do the next section.
Jenn Drummond:And so in business, I think it's doing those check-ins. What does it look like at the end of the week or the end of the month or the end of the quarter. There's spaces that we can see if things are starting to get derailed and we want to make sure that we're making those corrections early and often to stay on direction. If you think of an airplane and it's going from Salt Lake City to Detroit, if it gets off one degree early on flight, like it's not landing in Detroit anymore, right, so it has to keep course correcting based on what's the weather doing, what's the wind doing, is it blowing me off course, and can you like just readjust. And so I think it's those check-ins that we build, climbing, has it automatically with ropes. We have to set it up weekly, quarterly, monthly to make sure that we're on track and keep evaluating our risk reward.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, yeah, that is so helpful and I think you're right. I think there are other areas of our life. When you were talking I was thinking about years ago with our first child, brand new parents. We'd be like the wheels are coming off and that was our phrase to be like are they hungry? Do they need to be changed? Like, what did we forget? Are they cold? But in work, like you're saying, a lot of times we don't recognize until like the wheels are completely off, we skid it out in this fantastic failure. But I think it's figuring out. Is it at the end of each week where I do a quick check-in, is it in our meetings, adding in a devil's abdicate to say what are some potential consequences? But it is funny when you said that that I'm realizing that, yeah, there are a lot of areas in our life where we do naturally have these check-ins, but we tend to overlook that in traditional business settings.
Jenn Drummond:Yeah, In my personal life I have this little thing I call it a trigger meditation and every single time I touch a doorknob, I stop and I take a deep breath and I ask myself am I on autopilot right now, or am I on intention right now? And I think so often we just get on autopilot because that's what we've done and that's what we're doing, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah that we forget to like, get curious and be like is this even what I want to be doing? You know, that's like the beauty of vacations is you break, you break pattern, and so then you come back and you're like okay, well, wait a minute, why were we doing it that way? Or whatever. So I do think that intentional break of pattern allows you to evaluate the pattern and see if you want to continue it.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, yeah. And I love bringing in the curiosity too, because I think that so many times we fall victim to shame. Then like why, why would I have done that? Why did I? And being curious is what's a better approach? Or how can I do this differently? Or if I am on autopilot, why right?
Jenn Drummond:How do I change that yeah?
Dr. Leah OH:I love that, that with the doorknob I'm going to be, I'm going to be thinking about that and I imagine it'll probably take me a few days and then I will be doing it.
Jenn Drummond:Yeah, no, it's fine, like, we even do it, as we have this red light by our house and I'm on the short side of the red light, so I always got the red light and I'd be so angry and bitter Like oh my God, I got the red light again.
Jenn Drummond:And then, finally, one day, I had the aha moment of the red light. Doesn't care that it's red, only I care that it's red. And I'm writing this story that's keeping me stuck and miserable. Every single time I hit it red, I'm like I'm going to change this, and so we now call it our gratitude light. And so now, every single time we hit that light red, it's a cue to be okay, what am I grateful for right now in my life? And we all have to say it out loud, whoever's in the car. And then we go to the point where sometimes, if we hit it green, the kids are like, oh, we don't get to do our gratitude. We hit it green, the kids are like, oh, we don't get to do it green. That's what I was just thinking. How did that narrative change? So it's just that interruption to keep us on track.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, yeah, I love that, and such a great gift to give to others around you and yourself, yeah. So, jen, let's dive more deeply into communication and leadership. Communication is my happy, happy place and I know communication, especially in high pressure situations, is critical. So how has effective communication, how has it, played a role in your climbing, partnership and teams? And then after that, what are some of your takeaways for professionals? What can they learn from your experience with communication?
Jenn Drummond:Right. Well, I'm in life or death situations with communication, so it's critical. And what it has really taught me is to just be raw and honest, right, because then everybody knows what they're dealing with. So, for example, I need to know if you're cold, I need to know if you're tired or sore or thirsty, because we need to address that before it becomes a problem. And if somebody's gone before you, they'll be like okay, around this corner the wind comes. So do you have enough layers on right now? Are you ready to handle the wind, because we're going to be in it for this amount of time? So maybe layer up or layer down or do whatever.
Jenn Drummond:And when you are climbing like I'm 115 pounds, I am not able to carry a whole bunch of weight up the mountain. There's just no way. I don't have a big enough frame to do it, but I am short, so I do have a low center of gravity and I can dig. I can dig out a flat tent ground like nobody's business, a lot easier than somebody who's like six foot 180, right. And so just being really honest with here's what I'm good at, here's what I'm not good at, here's how I'm feeling right now and we're ready to go. And I think when we do that in business too, and we have the courage to say I'm really good at making the PowerPoint, I'm not good at doing the copywriting, so can somebody else do that piece? Or I'm really good at this, can you do that and just really let everybody play a piece to the puzzle.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, yeah. I love that, because then everyone's shining in the areas that they are, you know, atop strengths, and not feeling like they're trying to limp through an area that they're already uncomfortable with.
Jenn Drummond:Yeah, and when you're in your zone of genius, like life's good, it's fun, like this is where I'm at.
Jenn Drummond:So how can you build your day to have more of your life in that zone of genius, and who else can compliment you so that as a team? You know, I have a podcast and I interviewed an astronaut a little bit ago and it was interesting. There was 18,000 people that applied to be an astronaut in her astronaut class and they take 18. Okay, and they take 18, and it's like they always have to have a doctor on the team. They always have to have a mechanical engineer on the team. They always have to like you could be the most amazing person ever, but if they already picked the type of doctor they need, you're not on the team because they filled that spot, and so it doesn't mean you're bad, it just means like it wasn't the synergies of the skill sets that everybody needed to do. So the more honest you are, the more you're going to be able to line up with people that fit together with you to get things done.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, exactly, and I think that's such a powerful realization that it's not. Maybe it's not me or it's like you said. I don't have that exact specialization, but at the same time, we wouldn't want it because we'd be trying to mold and fit something we're not or that isn't our top skill, and that just doesn't make sense for anyone.
Jenn Drummond:Yeah, I mean, when we built our Mount Logan team of three people, there was no choice, like our third person had to be a tall, strong person because we had there's X number of weight, and that person had to be a tall, strong person because we had there's X number of weight and that weight had to get up the mountain. So at the end of the day, it's like, okay, here's what I can do, here's what you can do. Now we know who we need to hire, because that's the person that can do that piece, and we can't get up if we don't get that settled.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, exactly, and and so that was already. That's a great segue.
Jenn Drummond:So I want to think about empowering others, and I know that you aim to encourage others to push beyond these perceived limitations, and I was hoping you could share an example with us where either you've seen someone really transform that mindset and achieve their goals, or, if you wanted to share a personal example, if you wanted to share a personal example, yeah, so I have a client who had a restaurant failure, right, had a success with a restaurant, then had a failure with a restaurant and was looking to get into starting a new restaurant and kept replaying the tape of the failure, because it was more recent, instead of the tape of the success.
Jenn Drummond:And so we would sit down and we'd be like, okay, but is that the old version or is that the new version? And being very clear of what is new and unique about this situation. So we weren't bringing the energy of the old situation in and I think a lot of times we think it's a one-time decision. It is never a one-time decision, okay, like when you're climbing the mountain and it's 20,000 steps to the top, it is that same decision 20,000 times, okay. And so for these people, like when you're doing something, it is that decision every step, every day, multiple times, to get to where you're going and whatever you need to do to remember that or to do that or to whatever. But this now third restaurant, most successful of all of them, right, yeah.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, because we're taking our successes, we're taking the lessons that we learned when it didn't go the way that we had anticipated, and we're just armed with so much more knowledge.
Jenn Drummond:So much more knowledge right. Definitely, and you just have to give yourself permission to succeed and you have to be your biggest cheerleader because things are going to come at you. It's going to be hard. You can't be hard on yourself Like. You need to build yourself up so that you're ready to handle what comes your way.
Dr. Leah OH:Yes, I love that. So I always tell my kids it's hard enough out there, we don't need to do this to ourselves. You need to go in like fully present, yeah, so this question, this should be. I'm really excited. This is a fun one because we know that you're preparing to climb Mount Denali this May and I'm wondering what are some of your key goals or intentions for this particular climb and how does it fit into your broader vision of personal growth?
Jenn Drummond:Yeah, so Denali is. I'm so excited about this climb because it's the highest point in North America and to have a world record and to have like the highest point in your home base feels, so good. Um, it's fun because now I've kind of built a name for myself and the industry and so people want to climb with you. You know, when you first start you're like oh yeah, here's who. I am Like, please, like, I promise I'm a hard worker.
Jenn Drummond:Yeah, and so now it's fun to be on the other side of the table where people are like I'll do it, or I want to be on your team, or whatever. So that's cool. And here's the thing. Like I know I'm going to get to the top of Denali, maybe not this year.
Jenn Drummond:Okay, like I'm not going to be arrogant and fight mother nature or whatever delivers that way but, I know I'm going to get to the top of that mountain and so, since I'm committed to getting to the top of that mountain, now my energy is focused on how do I make it fun, how do I bring other people along, how do I like, what can I do to expand this experience? So it's not just mine? And I think when we don't have that commitment, then we're like constantly negotiating with ourselves Should we turn around? Should I go to the top? Should we turn around? Should I go to the top? No, no, no. That decision's been made. So when that decision's made, now all my energy is how do I make it fun? How do I elevate others? How do I bring you along on the journey? How do you learn from me? So this experience is all of ours, not just mine. And that's where the real joy and fun comes.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, and I really I love that, so I think so many of us it's. Can I get there? I want to get there. Will I get there? I'm trying so hard to get there. But I love when you say no, that's going to happen, and recognize maybe not this year, but that will happen. And fun isn't a word that I think a lot of us are used to integrating when we're thinking about reaching these big goals. It's work, it's hard, it's challenge, it's sacrifice. Right, those are the words, but what an amazing idea to bring fun in. Honestly, if we're not having some fun along the way, why are we doing this? Why are we doing it?
Jenn Drummond:And like, show me. So there's this section of Mount Everest called the Lhotse Face, and I'm not kidding you, it is like a 3,700-foot outdoor Stairmaster exposed in the elements, right? So if you ask most teams, it's everybody's least favorite section of Everest. Okay, we, like you, have to go through it. So we knew we were going through it and we knew it's everybody's least favorite section. So that was a challenge to me. I'm like, okay, how do we make this a fun section? Right?
Jenn Drummond:And so we each took turns leading in that area, and whoever was at the front of the line had to tell jokes, had to sing songs, had to tell stories from their childhood, like had to entertain us, to break the monotony of the task of one foot in front of the other. And then when they got tired, they went to the back of the line and then somebody else would like lead with song or jokes or stories or whatever it was Right To. Just it kept the morale up. We were giggling, we were having fun, and I'm telling you the team who's having fun versus the team who's like we got to do this Like let's go. It's a different energy and it's like you have so much more endurance when you're having fun.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, fun, yeah, and I'm sure it's like creating extra reserves of energy and just thinking about the power of the mind. When it's not, how am I getting my next foot literally in front of the other foot and you're thinking about telling a joke and laughing about a bad joke? That is a fundamentally different experience.
Jenn Drummond:Definitely joke.
Dr. Leah OH:That is a fundamentally different experience. Definitely, and I love too, when you were sharing that I was thinking about. You know, I think so many times kids get it right, right, they know how to. I mean, they're out there in recess when it is freezing, but they're still having fun, or in the rain, or in the mud and they're, you know, navigating friendship dynamics where their teeth are falling out, which is so hard, but they're still finding a way to have a blast while doing it. And I think that's amazing that you're able to do that, recapture that as adults in arguably one of the hardest, hardest situations that there is.
Jenn Drummond:So, yeah, and you just have to catch yourself Like believe me, I'm not perfect at it because, like on Mount Logan, you have to make igloos around your tent because otherwise the wind will rip your tent and it will, like you'll die, right.
Jenn Drummond:So I was like I have to make an igloo to protect the tent from the wind, like. So at first you're like oh my God, this is so exhausting. I'm cutting out ice blocks, I'm stacking them, I'm freezing, I'm mad and blah, blah, blah, blah, and I had to. I'm like wait a minute, if I was five years old, this would be the coolest thing ever. Like I get to play outside and make snow forts Are you kidding me right now? And so like you. And then you're so then when you go into it, you're like okay, I'm making a snow fort. That's a different energy and it makes this task that's miserable at least a little more tolerable.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, oh, that is amazing. Yes, I love that. So, jen, I have our two final questions for you, which I've just really enjoyed this conversation, and I'm sad we're coming to end, but this is the way we end all of our episodes of the communicative leader. So we think about a pragmatic leadership or communication tip, advice or challenge, and the first part is for our titled leaders out there, our managers, directors, ceos, and then the second part of the question is kind of advice, the tip or challenge for employees at all levels, across all industries.
Jenn Drummond:Okay, so, as the leader, I think if you give yourself, like, before you go into the meeting with the people, get really clear on the intention of the meeting. Not only what do you want to deliver, but how do you want people to feel and I think that makes a big difference in how the meeting goes. And when you consider how you want them to feel, like say, it's constructive feedback, but you want them to feel empowered, that's going to help you deliver it in a way where you're getting the message across but you're letting them leave empowered, not defeated. And then, as a employee, say where you want to go or what direction you want to be, like hey, someday I want to be a manager, or someday I want to go do this, or I'm really interested in learning about this field, because people need to know they don't get to live in your head and understand that.
Jenn Drummond:So, as I know, as I'm a leader, I like to know what my employees are interested in or what they're curious about or what gets them excited. But it's hard for me, with all the things going on, to remember to ask I love it when they share it like, hey, this is what I'm doing this weekend, or this is what I'm excited about, because then I can file that in my brain and be like, oh, guess what So-and-so likes Taylor Swift, so that if something comes up in the future and I see something and I whatever and I can like accuse me to think of them, then I can show them that I care about them in ways that I wouldn't if I didn't know that. But as the employee, you need to lead with that information and when you start leading with that information, you start becoming more of a leader.
Dr. Leah OH:Yes, and I love these. What I really love about these, jen, is that I think the best advice is the simplest. It is clear, it is actionable. So I think too often, especially in our society, we're really obsessed with leadership, which can be a really great thing, but you don't need a 16-point plan to lead a good meeting, but you do need intention and thinking about how you want people to leave, how you want them to feel when they leave. So that is so beautiful and so simple and it's going to be so effective. Just a game changer, jen. Thank you for sharing your time, your experiences, these beautiful, vibrant illustrations with us. I know that I've thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. I've gotten so much out of it, and I know that our listeners will as well.
Jenn Drummond:Well, thank you for the opportunity to share my story. I appreciate it.
Dr. Leah OH:All right, my friends. That wraps up our conversation today. Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose. I'm looking forward to chatting with you again soon on the Communicative Leader.
