The Communicative Leader

Redesigning Life & Leadership: Insights from Dr. Marjan Modara on Curiosity, Communication, and Change

• Dr. Leah OH • Season 7 • Episode 6

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Dr. Marjan Modara shares her journey from architectural engineering to becoming a distinguished personal knowledge management facilitator, keynote speaker, and storyteller with over 40 years of experience across government and private sectors.

• Personal knowledge management combines individual learning from various sources with strategic application of that knowledge in different contexts
• Creating safe spaces for knowledge sharing is critical—when people feel comfortable sharing ideas without judgment, innovation multiplies
• Storytelling serves as one of the most effective knowledge capture techniques, making information memorable and accessible
• Transparent communication during organizational change helps employees understand and adapt to new environments
• Warning signs of unhealthy company culture include high turnover, silent meetings, departmental silos, and passive-aggressive communication
• Anonymous surveys and focus groups provide valuable feedback mechanisms to course-correct problematic cultural patterns
• Leaders must cultivate adaptability, diverse skills, and emotional intelligence to thrive in rapidly changing environments
• Continuous learning remains essential regardless of age or career stage
• Employees should identify their passions and effectively communicate their needs while developing emotional intelligence

Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose.


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Hey leader! Thanks for listening. For more leadership communication tips, check out https://www.thecommunicativeleader.com/

Dr. Leah OH:

Welcome to another episode of the Communicative Leader. I'm your host, Dr Leah OH, and today we're honored to welcome Dr Marjan Modara, a distinguished personal knowledge management facilitator, keynote speaker and storyteller With over 40 years of rich experience straddling both the government and private sectors, dr Modara brings a wealth of knowledge in managing relationships and coordinating projects across diverse teams. As the founder of a dynamic knowledge-sharing hub, dr Modera has dedicated herself to empowering organizations and individuals through workshops and presentations to foster trust, communication and motivation. Her recent TEDx talk Redesigning your Life After 50,. Her recent TEDx talk Redesigning your Life After 50, has inspired countless individuals worldwide to embrace curiosity and resilience in their personal and professional lives. In today's episode, we will explore Dr Madera's insights on capturing organizational knowledge, managing change and cultivating a vibrant culture that supports continuous learning.

Dr. Leah OH:

Whether you're a seasoned leader or just embarking on your career journey, this conversation is packed with practical strategies and wisdom designed to help you thrive amidst today's professional and personal challenges. Let's dive in and have some fun. Hello and welcome to the Communicative Leader hosted by me, Dr Leah Omilion- Hodges. My friends call me Dr OH. I'm a professor of communication and a leadership communication expert. On the Communicative Leader, we're working to make your work life what you want it to be. Well, welcome Marjan. We're thrilled to have you on the Communicative Leader and I was hoping, before we dive into this conversation, if you could share a little bit about your professional journey and what has led you to where you are today.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

Okay, sure, first of all, it's a pleasure to be with you on this podcast and to imagine that at this time and era we're halfway across the world and we're talking to each other. It's amazing. So, okay, let me start by saying that I started as an engineer. So I went to college and got my degree in architectural engineering at UT Austin. And now the interesting part was that when I started studying that at the time you know, we're talking about 40, 45 years ago and there was no internet, no, nothing. So we didn't really have that many choices. So they would say, oh, what do you want to be? It was either an engineer or a doctor, and we were very lucky enough to get scholarships from the government. So I got a scholarship to go to UT Austin and I studied architectural engineering Boston. And I studied architectural engineering. The minute I started in the first year I was like, no, this is not what I want to do. But unfortunately I was halfway on the other side of the world and I was on a scholarship, so there was no way I could do anything else. So I kept on and I graduated, came back, got a job and worked in ministry in one of our ministries it's called Ministry of Housing and then got married. And then got married and the kids came along, and I was really not that happy at work, but it being a government job, it was convenient, so we would be going from seven to two and then I'd have the rest of the day with the kids until like 15 years in. And I decided to go in for my first master's degree, and it was in geographical information system, and the problem is when I was studying that, when it came time to write the research paper, my boss said oh, we can't give you a leave because we really need you at work, and I was already studying on my own finances, and all that not even through work. So when I asked for the one month leave without pay, and him saying that, no, we won't be able to give you that, I said OK, then you know what I had enough. So I quit. Yeah, good for you, I quit. Yeah, I quit, I quit, I quit.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

And at the time, though, it was very good era we were having in the Middle East and the financial sector needed engineers in the financial sector, and I got lucky enough to get a job immediately and I got in. It was an investment bank and it was amazing and I really found myself sound myself and professionally and all that, um, unfortunately again, what happened was they said, okay, now, uh, we need to bring in a ceo, but we can't make you a ceo because you're a female and we need, um, a man for the job. And I was like, okay, um, fine, I've been doing all this job. And then I thought, all all the work, and I thought, okay, it's my baby, fine, I'll be the second person in the company. Unfortunately, fast forward again, the guy they brought in didn't get along with me because I was already doing everything and he sent. He felt kind of like like she's exactly, exactly, exactly.

Dr. Leah OH:

As he should. You already knew the job.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

Job, yeah, yeah, exactly. So I stayed a few months, but then he took everything from me. Couldn't do any I mean, I would go nine to five just looking at the walls and really not doing anything. And I said, hey, I didn't leave my previous job to just sit in here. I'd rather be at home with my kids than be here for hours with that. So again, I quit.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

Now the problem was it was in 2008, and I was going to go into consultancy and start becoming a consultant, but unfortunately, at the end of that year, financial crisis happened and everything crashed, and so no job, no, nothing. And I was already, you know, experienced, and not many people wanted to get somebody experience and pay so much, much. So I went for my second master's degree. So I said you know what I need to have this going on, I can't just sit at home. So I went for my engineering management degree.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

It was halfway through my engineering management degree that I came across a field of knowledge management and innovation management that I got really interested in, and that's where it opened up the PhD program for me and, with the connection of the professor who was giving us the knowledge management, I got into that program and that journey started the PhD journey, and I was very, very happy with that. But of course, you know, chaos happens, life happens during that journey and that's where I started really working on myself. You know, like self-development, my thoughts, how to become at peace, inner self and all that. So that's where the self-development part started. So, to be honest with you, the PhD journey wasn't just getting a degree. It also changed me as a person. It changed me with my relationships, with everyone around me. It made me calmer and then I started thinking that there is much more to life than a C-suite job and having titles and all that.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

So when I graduated, when I got my PhD, I thought, okay, what's next? And that's when I opened up the space to have workshops and training and sort of like a space, a safe space where you gather people and you share knowledge. And that's where the sharing knowledge and in order to innovate started. I got after a couple of years, I was lucky enough to get a chance to be a professor in the in the university and start as a part-time teaching in the in the university. And yeah, a year and a half ago again, I was lucky enough to have that TEDx talk in Manama for women and I was chosen to be one of the speakers, and that's where the TEDx talk happened ago. Somehow the algorithm went viral and everyone started listening to it and connecting, because they would be also going through a lot in their lives and in their career and started connecting. So that's where I'm standing at today.

Dr. Leah OH:

Yeah, excellent, thank you, and I love learning about these journeys because I think so often, especially when we're our younger selves, our freshness, getting ready to start like this is going to be straight. I'm going to put one foot in front of the other in this. It's going to be like a ladder from here to here.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

Exactly, yeah, we think it's linear, but it's not linear whatsoever and you cannot plan it at all. Whatever you plan, you could explain to us you know what personal knowledge management means to you, kind of what's your definition and why is it critical for individuals and organizations? Right, Absolutely.

Dr. Leah OH:

Absolutely Okay.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

So now, as far as the personal knowledge management comes in, it's you know how, when you go through life and you learn things through culture and through your parents and through everyone around you and the society, and you start building your own beliefs according to that and then taking things that you want and saying, no, these things don't work for me. And then you go through education and you start getting a degree, experience, career, profession. So all of this what happens is is you're building your personal knowledge, right, so you do take it from outside, but then you start putting the pieces of the puzzle together for you. Okay, so then your personal knowledge, your knowledge, becomes yours because it's unique to you. You learn things from other people, but then you adjust it and adapt it to you and how you want to go through life with your own knowledge. So that's where the personal knowledge comes in.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

Now, where the management comes in, is you look at yourself and you say, okay, I have all of this, I have this experience, I have this degree, I have these relationships with people. What is it? How can I manage that? Like looking for a career, okay, you would say, okay, I have a degree, but the knowledge that I have doesn't work in this organization, but it works in that organization. It doesn't work in this organization, but it works in that organization.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

So you start putting in that management for your own knowledge so that's where the management comes in for your own knowledge and work it around the environment that you're in and the organizations that you want to join in and also with the relationships that you have with everyone around you. Okay, according to your knowledge and what you believe in. Now, having said that, what happens is now, when you go into an organization, you have all these people that coming in with their own personal knowledge Each person has their own personal knowledge, but they are now part of this big organization that have to go along with the database or the knowledge of that organization. So what happens is that organization has to take all these bits and pieces of these data, of these personal data that comes in and manages them and puts them into the organization knowledge.

Dr. Leah OH:

So that's how the pieces come together the personal going into the organization, yeah, and you start to realize what a complex but what a rich puzzle that is, and you're bringing it all together.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

Absolutely. But then you have to manage it right no-transcript and then manage whatever you want for the organization for the sake of moving the organization forward and innovating and taking advantage of that for the organization.

Dr. Leah OH:

Yes, yes, cause, yes, you're right, cause otherwise it's just a mess. Right, it's just. Without the management component and someone who understands what to kind of harness, what to pull up, what to foster Exactly, you're not really getting anywhere.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

Yeah, that's fascinating, exactly, exactly so. So that's, yeah, that's fascinating, exactly Exactly so. That's, you know, wrapping it up, putting it up together and trying to connect the two knowledges together and manage them.

Dr. Leah OH:

So let's continue, I imagine, in thinking about especially knowledge management in organizations. We need trust and really effective communication Absolutely, and for leaders to kind of foster that trust and those open lines of communication so that they're better able to manage all of this knowledge.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

Absolutely. Now. It's very crucial these days to have a safe space. A safe space in order for people to be able to talk and share whatever the knowledge that they have and collaborate together and trust each other. That, okay, I'm giving you my knowledge, but I know that you're not going to take it and run away from it. But I know that you're not going to take it and run away from it, but we're going to be doing something better, because my knowledge, with your knowledge okay, will add up to a new knowledge, and that's where innovation happens.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

Okay, I cannot innovate just by myself. You cannot innovate by just yourself. And be creative. Our creativities have to come together. Okay, there are things that I know to do better and there are things that you know and you're skilled at that know better.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

Now, if we put this together, it's not going to be one plus one equals two. Together, it's not going to be one plus one equals two. It's going to be one plus one equals 10, because so much bigger things are going to happen. So the trust has to be there, okay, the safe space has to be there, and a clear communication, because if you don't communicate, if you're not transparent with your communication, it will not go across, the sharing will not happen. So it's very crucial Okay, the environment, the environment, the safe space, okay, where you can, where you can talk freely, and even if you say you say something that doesn't make sense, people will not laugh at you. Actually, they will say oh, that's interesting, we never thought about it that way. So you feel you feel safe at saying anything that comes to your mind and then going forward with that. So that's very important these days.

Dr. Leah OH:

Yes, yeah, exactly Because if you're going to ask me to be vulnerable and share this information, especially when it doesn't align with your expertise, so it might really not make sense at first it needs to be in a scenario where I know, like you said, I have that safety. No one is going to laugh at me.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

Exactly, and we're all diverse. We all come from different backgrounds, from different cultures, different languages, everything. So we have to understand each other and be compassionate and and give empathy in order to understand each other, and then we can work together yes, and so we've been.

Dr. Leah OH:

let's keep pulling on this knowledge management thread. And one thing I know as an organizational scholar I think a lot about how much knowledge is lost when people leave organizations. Absolutely Right, some of your work in workshops. You work with organizations to help them think about capturing and preserving this knowledge. I was wondering if you could talk to us about that process and maybe some practical approaches that you offer that have worked well, Right?

Dr. Marjan Modara:

So there are a few. It's mentoring, shadowing, okay, and, as I said, having those safe spaces, having meetings where people just sit and have coffee and just talk, especially if they are from different departments coming together. Okay, now, the most interesting one that I found and I always talk about is the storytelling. Storytelling is so effective in the sense that, say, you have an employee that was in a project and that project either went really well or even if it failed, but talking about that, that story from their perspective and from their point of view, and explaining it to others with feelings and structured, it's very engaging.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

Okay, and imagine, how many times did you hear a story and it got stuck in your mind and you never forgot it. But you read something and it was not interesting and then you just walked out of the door and it was gone. Storytelling is one of the most effective knowledge capturing techniques. That is very, very effective, yes, and what happens is, if you record that and then put it in the archives and share it with all the other employees say, some of the employees were not there with you in that meeting or in that session you can just have it in the database and then share it with everyone else and lessons learned. That's one of the most effective way of capturing knowledge.

Dr. Leah OH:

Yeah, yeah, I really like that. I think especially, you know, as you were mentioning, we live in a time where there's so much data and we have ways of managing and storing it, and that's a great way to use it really thoughtfully, so that you know it can be a teacher to us.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

Right, right. But imagine if somebody talks about it and tell it in a story kind of way. People will always remember and when they come across an obstacle or something at work and then they think, oh, how did so-and-so? Oh, I remember so-and-so talked about it in that session and all that, let me go and bring it out and see how they solved it. Yeah, or what did they do at the time? So it stays, it sticks in your mind and you will always remember it, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

And one more thing that is also, I think, very effective, especially when you have people leaving the company, is having that interview. At the end, you know where you bring them in, not the exit interview. Yes, yeah, and you interview them and you say, okay, what did you find good in the company? What did you not find good in the company? Can you share what we should do in order to make it a better organization, a better environment, a better culture for other people? And you know they're leaving, they will talk, they will tell you what it is, and that's another way of capturing knowledge.

Dr. Leah OH:

Yeah.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

Which is very effective.

Dr. Leah OH:

Exactly, and that's a really nice segue because I know that you do a lot of work with organizations and people surrounding change. And we know that change can be really challenging. Oh, yes, your work. You know what are the. Are there some key principles that you think leaders should follow in managing change? You know what is your experience or advice with change in organizations?

Dr. Marjan Modara:

Okay, Now, one of the things that I have come across and I know is is very important that is, to be very transparent about the change that is going to be happening. You know, clear about the vision for that change. Okay, don't come at the end of you know, right at the time the change is going to happen, and tell your employees oh, this change is going to happen. I mean, they are in the comfort zone. We human beings like to stay where we are, where we're comfortable with whatever we're doing. We don't want to rock the boat, right? So the leader, the upper management, they have to make sure that they get across that a change is happening, what the change is, and be very clear with the vision for that change.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

Why are we changing? What is it that we want at the end of the day? Okay, and take them slowly into that change. Okay, we shouldn't do it in overnight and expect people to be, oh really, that's great. We're not. Human beings cannot take change all of a sudden. Yeah, we need that. So, transparency, communicating the change, the vision for that change and why we are doing that change.

Dr. Leah OH:

Yeah, yeah, exactly yeah, I agree, I always say that distressing news can be palatable. I agree, I always say that distressing news can be palatable. Again, if you have that transparency if we're timely with it, because we do people a disservice in thinking they can't handle it, but we also need to think about the best way to deliver that messaging Right.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

And one more thing that I remember I was involved in two organizations merging. So I went in and I said listen, guys, don't only think about the numbers. Okay, because you're having two different cultures coming together. So all these employees in this company are afraid, and the other employees in the other organization is afraid of the change that is going to happen. They don't know what's going to happen to them, what kind of culture is coming in, because both cultures were different. Okay, so I said, sit down with the employees and talk to them about this, talk about what's going to happen and why you're doing it for them to know, and also talk about the two different cultures, what you are taking from the best of that culture and the best of this culture and putting them together. Make them aware of that. Okay, and it was. It was a good move, it was a very good move.

Dr. Leah OH:

Yeah, oh, excellent. And that brings us. Another thing you talk about and I think I looked at some of your writing is reinvigorating motivation. And this is so important because we know keeping a team motivated can be really tough, especially if we have uncertainty or we've had periods of really heavy work. And I'm wondering what techniques have you found to be most effective in reinvigorating that motivation in teams?

Dr. Marjan Modara:

Right, right, okay, as we said again and again, communication comes up. Yeah, communication is key in everything. Okay, but not just communication, but also modeling what you're talking about. Some leaders and upper management and all that. They talk about things and then they turn around and they don't do it themselves, right? They don't model what they're talking. You know, they don't walk the talk.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

So it is very important for them to be the role model for whatever they want their employees to be in. Also, I mean having fun activities to do in times of really hard work. You know, like hours and hours of long work and all that. Give them that break in the middle work and all that give them that break in the middle. Give them that incentive of okay, let's do an activity or just bring in food from outside and say we'll take a break for an hour or two hours. Let's sit down and just relax and vent, even talk, talk about what's going on, tell us if you're okay.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

You know, being empathetic and being there for your employees is very important. It's very important these days. Once they see how you are there for them, they will do more Um, yeah and uh and, as I said, activities, um, even activities outside the organization every once in a while, just just let them go out, uh, let them meet outside, uh, the company and um, and have company and have fun, and have fun. Imagine when they come back the day after, refreshed, how much more good feelings and good vibes they have to start the day. Yeah, to start the day, very important. Yeah, yeah, to start the day Very important, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Leah OH:

And then, tied into that, you know that you've talked about analyzing and thinking about an organization's cultures yeah, it's culture, and I'm wondering if you could talk to us about some early warning signs that you see that kind of make us look and say, oof, this culture is headed in an unhealthy direction. What are those early warning signs?

Dr. Marjan Modara:

A few that I can talk about now is the ones that come up to me is the high employee turnover. You know, once you start seeing people are leaving, that's a sign right, especially if you have very talented, high skilled employees leaving One, two, three in short periods, that's an alarm, okay. Okay, you have to go and see what's going on and and you know it's a red, it's a, it's a flag, it's a red flag. Okay, what's going on? Let me go talk to them, let me go see what's happening, yeah, okay. And then, um, you have meetings where everybody's silent, nobody's talking, and you can, you see only the management talking and they are scared of saying anything um other than what the management wants to to hear. Okay, that's not a good culture.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

Silos, where you have collaboration, you know, us versus them. When you start having groups in the company and everyone wants to do their own thing and sort of become against the other, say one department against the other department, come on, guys, we're all in one organization, we should be working together. Once these silos happen and collaboration is gone's another red flag. Something is going on, the culture is not going the right way. Let's do something about them, okay.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

And then you have the passive-aggressive communication, where your manager is telling you something and then turns around and either promises you something but then doesn't give you the promotion, promises you a nicer environment in the office and all that, but that doesn't happen. That's not a good sign, you know. The culture is not going the right way. And then the inconsistency of preaching values and not doing the values themselves. Yes, yeah. So these are, you know, signs of bad culture. Now how can we look at them and see what's happening is start having anonymous surveys. You know, put in surveys and say don't put your names down, we don't want to know who's saying what, we just want to hear you.

Dr. Leah OH:

Yes.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

We just want to hear what's going on in the company. Want to hear you. Yes, we just want to hear what's going on in the company, because some people are really scared of saying and then thinking that they will jeopardize their positions and their work and their job and they will be fired, so they won't talk. But if you tell them that we will not be knowing who is saying what, okay, you're all safe, but we want to hear you. Yes, okay, and doing that, what else? You can have focus group meetings where you bring in certain people with certain skills and you ask them what's going on? Why aren't we doing so well in that product or not doing so well in this project? What's going on? This is a safe space. Talk about it, because we want to make things better. Okay, so these are some of the things that a leader can do in order to change the culture of the company.

Dr. Leah OH:

Yeah, I appreciate that and I always like having some, you know, those tangible early warning signs so that we can tune in and then, like you said, have that anonymous survey ready to go. Yeah, so that we can course correct before we've lost a lot of really good people. Exactly and again as we said, those interviews, the exit interviews are also a very good, effective way.

Dr. Leah OH:

Yeah, yeah, marjane, let's look at your, let's think about your viral TED Talk, which is so exciting Redesigning your life after 50, it reflects resilience and perspective and I encourage our listeners to go and watch this TED Talk, but from your perspective. You know, are there a couple, I don't know one, two, like what?

Dr. Marjan Modara:

are the most important lessons you've learned throughout your journey that you think all leaders should, should consider? Um, never stop learning. You know we don't. We don't stop um, especially these days, in this era that we're living in. I mean, um, look at me, I'm, I'm 64.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

If I had stopped, uh, saying, okay, this is enough, I don't want to learn anymore, I won't be able to to cope with all the technology that's happening around me and all that, and I want to be out there, I want to know what's going on. So, um, I have to be constantly growing, developing, learning. And it's exciting, it's an exciting time we're going through, but we have to adapt the growth mindset. You know where Duik says that if you have a fixed mindset, you just stand where you are and you will not be able to move. But having the growth mindset, you know that things are coming up, new things are coming up. I have to learn, I have to be out there, and it's never a bad thing, I mean be vulnerable.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

Go and ask, go and ask, go and ask. I don't know this, I don't know how to do this. Even the younger generation, I go and ask them this gadget is out, how can I work with it and all that, and they're more than happy to show us. So just be curious, just go on learning and don't stop. And there's no such a thing that, oh, you know, I've reached this age and that's it. I don't you know, I'm tired, I don't want to learn anymore. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. We want to go on learning and learning and having the curious mind. Exactly, yeah.

Dr. Leah OH:

And this next question. I mean I think you kind of touched on it, but I was wondering if there are more yes, Just thinking about evolving leadership skills. So you know we've talked about lifelong learning and asking questions. And I'm wondering do you have other advice for leaders you know who are navigating their careers later in life? They're seasoned professionals. And are there principles they should adopt to keep thriving or things they should be mindful of, you know, in organizations at this time in their careers.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

Yeah, as you say, adaptability. We have to adapt. We can't just say, oh, we are from, we're Generation X or baby boomers and all that, and you know this is all new to us. There is no such a thing. We have to adapt and move forward with the generation and the beauty of it is that if you sit down with the new generation, they're more than happy to share. But we have to come down to their level, yeah, okay, and sit with them and start learning from them and, believe me, they want to learn from us also. We've got a lot of experience. We have 30 years of experience in advance of what they have. We have seen 30 years forward that they haven't seen yet that we can share with them. So sharing that knowledge, being adaptable to all the new things that are coming up emotional intelligence really, really is very crucial.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

We have to know other people, our employees. We have to know how they think. We have to know what's going on in their lives. Sometimes they come in and they are already so burnt out from their houses because something is going on. Either they are a caretaker, they have a sick person in the house, they have small children but nobody to take care of them and all that. We have to be empathetic about that and give them this space and just ask about them. The minute you ask about them and say what can I do to help you be in a better space at work, they will talk, and maybe even just talking. You don't really need to do much outside, even if you just sit down and talk with them. Make them feel better. Yes, that's, that's a step forward.

Dr. Leah OH:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is amazing the power of helping someone be feel seen is transformative.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

Absolutely, absolutely, yeah, affirmative, absolutely, absolutely, yeah, and and it doesn't mean that you're a leader, that that you can't sit and be yourself with your employees. There's always that. I mean, believe me, the respect will always be there, okay, okay, but respect is mutual. You have to get respect in order to get respect, exactly.

Dr. Leah OH:

Exactly Well, thank you. So, marjan, I have two final questions for you, and these are intertwined. This is the way that we end all episodes of the Communicative Leader and it's thinking about. So the first one is pragmatic leadership or communication tip, advice or challenge for our titled leaders out there. And then the follow-up question is you know what is that advice or tip or challenge for? For employees across all ranks, all industries, right?

Dr. Marjan Modara:

Okay Now, today's leaders, they should cultivate diverse skills and qualities. It shouldn't be just like I'm good at just this and, as we said, you know, they have to be adaptable. They have to know that there are so many things, so many diverse things and skills. I mean, imagine something that happened three positions that were there three, four years ago are now redundant years ago, are now redundant. So if you stick to that mindset that that is going to be there forever, not anymore, okay. So diverse skills, qualities to thrive in a very rapidly changing environment and our world, it's very crucial.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

And practical communication transparency. I can't, you know, I mean I cannot push on that more, because once you are transparent, once you are authentic, once you are, you know how to communicate well and listen well. Yes, you know we always talk about communication as if we are just talking, but listening is a big part of it. Also, listen what the other party has to say yes, in order to come into agreement. Okay, uh, sense of empathy and emotional intelligence very important these days, very important. Okay.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

Now for the employees okay, they have to again work on themselves. Okay, in order to understand what they want. Okay, and communicate that to their upper management, to their other colleagues. What is it that they want? Because most of the times, if you have noticed all the new generation they study and they get degrees, but then they come out and they think, oh, but that's not my passion, my passion is something else, and they go after it. Yeah, and it is very interesting because in our time it was just you get one degree, you work in that one degree, you end up all your life being in. That isn't that boring, it's? It's. It's so, for now, in order to be helping, you have to be, uh, working on something that that gives you that, that fulfillment inside that passion. But they have to also work on it to become better, okay, and communicate that to other people and then build their ability to manage both their own emotion and understand the emotions of other people Okay, so that they can work together. Very, very crucial, yeah.

Dr. Leah OH:

Yeah.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

Yeah.

Dr. Leah OH:

And I love this focus. Now I think we're we're much better at acknowledging that people come to work and not just a shell of a person. Because I think if we, you know, five, 10 years ago, we wouldn't be talking about empathy.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

Ten years ago, we wouldn't be talking about empathy as much, we wouldn't be talking about emotional intelligence as much um right we're saying this isn't nice to have, it is need to have yeah, and if you noticed that, um, after what happened with the what do they call it? The big resignation they called it People were leaving because when they sat at home and they started working from home, they realized what a toxic culture they were working in. They realized what a toxic culture they were working in and they couldn't stand it anymore going back to that environment. So it's all about emotions, it's all about understanding each other and being in the right culture to work together and it's all for the benefit of the organization. At the end of the day, if I'm in a good mindset and I'm happy, believe me, I'll do double what I'm doing today. Yeah, yeah. So it's all about that.

Dr. Leah OH:

Yeah, marjan, thank you for sharing your time with us, your expertise. This has been a really fun conversation.

Dr. Marjan Modara:

And I've enjoyed it and I know our listeners will as well. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Dr Lea. It was really a pleasure.

Dr. Leah OH:

All right, my friends. That wraps up our conversation today. Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose. I'm looking forward to chatting with you again soon on the Communicative Leader.

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