The Communicative Leader
On The Communicative Leader, we're making your work life what you want it to be. Do you need years of training or special equipment? Not at all my friends. Simple, yet thoughtful changes in your communication can make great strides in displaying your leadership ability. And why the heck should you care about leadership communication? Well, communication is the yardstick others use to determine whether or not they see you as a leader. Ahhh don't be scared, I got you. We will walk through common organizational obstacles and chat about small, but meaningful communication-rooted changes you can integrate immediately. No more waiting for the workplace to become what you hope it will. Nope. You, my friends, will be empowered and equipped to make those changes. Let's have some fun! Can't get enough?
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The Communicative Leader
Leading with Real Power: Thriving in Chaos with Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau shares her Smart Power method for leadership transformation, challenging traditional power dynamics and empowering leaders to create meaningful impact in chaotic environments. Through her 30-year career studying power in organizations, she reveals how authentic leadership, purposeful collaboration, and systemic thinking can revolutionize organizational culture.
• The difference between old power (force and control) vs real power (creating intended, constructive outcomes)
• How the European Investment Bank's transformation to become a climate bank required new leadership approaches
• The SMART Power Method: Systemic, Merging, Authentic personal, Relational, and Transformational
• Breaking down organizational silos by focusing on shared goals rather than departmental priorities
• Practical strategies for thriving amid chaos: personal practices, purpose connection, perspective, and collaboration
• The critical importance of organizational culture in successful transformation
• Leadership skills for the future: continuous learning, systemic thinking, co-creation, and human connection
• How political science and international relations principles apply to organizational leadership
• The counterintuitive truth that trying to hold onto power makes you less powerful
Ask more questions and truly listen - it builds trust and helps you understand others better. For employees at all levels, get friendly with your emotions by feeling, knowing, and managing them to become more effective and authentic at work.
Hey leader! Thanks for listening. For more leadership communication tips, check out https://www.thecommunicativeleader.com/
Hi and welcome to another episode of the Communicative Leader. I'm your host, dr Leah OH, and today we're joined by an extraordinary leader in executive coaching, dr Sylvia Rode-Libanow. With a rich 30-year career in elevating C-suite leaders and entrepreneurs, sylvia empowers individuals to flourish in today's rapidly evolving landscape. Sylvia, the author of the successful book who's in Charge Lead with Real Power and Create an Impact in a Chaotic World, masterfully combines visionary thought, leadership, personal stories and practical advice to guide leaders toward greater energy, power, purpose and fulfillment. Her impressive credentials include being a leader development expert and an EMCC accredited senior professional coach with extensive experience in international and financial institutions. In today's episode, we will dive deep into Sylvia's proven strategies for navigating leadership challenges and fostering organizational development. If you're ready to lead with real power and make an impactful difference, this episode offers invaluable insights and actionable guidance. Let's dive in and have some fun.
Dr. Leah OH:Hello and welcome to the Communicative Leader hosted by me, Dr Leah Omilion- Hodges. My friends call me Dr O. I'm a professor of communication and a leadership communication expert. On the Communicative Leader, we're working to make your work life what you want it to be. Sylvia, welcome to the Communicative Leader. I'm so excited to have you on the show today and before we dive into this fun conversation, I was hoping you could start by sharing your journey to where you are now a senior executive coach.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:First of all, leah, thank you so much for having me. I really feel honored and I'm very excited to have this conversation today with you. And yeah, your question how did I get to where I am today, working on leadership and also communication and questions of power? So when I thought about what I wanted to study at university, I was thinking between psychology and political science and in the end I opted for political science. But I very much worked on psychological topics, always around impact, like social power and communication, in my master's, then also in my PhD, which was in international relations.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:And then I had my first job at the European Commission in Development Corporation, where I wondered why, like what does an organization? What makes an organization tick? What makes an organization succeed? Why do some organizations change and others stagnate? How does that all work? And I was like part of this system and trying to figure it out. But then I become a consultant, wanting to more like deal with the change and and and learn about it and advise it. And there I had the opportunity to participate in an organization development training. So I wanted to study that further and part of that was coaching and it opened a new world for me and what I loved about coaching immediately was the process of discovery. It's not teaching on someone, it is helping someone to uncover something that they already know and to really create the best out of themselves, rather than learning something from a book. And we already briefly exchanged about the joys of academia, which are great and they give great gifts to the world, and, at the same time, sometimes we also have to find the wisdom in ourselves.
Dr. Leah OH:Exactly so, so beautifully put, and I love too that journey and recognizing that when you start in political science it might on the surface feel so different from leaderships and organizations and relationships, and you just realize it's a different level, but you're still able to draw those parallels. It's people, it's people, yeah, exactly I?
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:I'm in my master's. I studied the um, un disarmament conference in geneva and I wondered why did these diplomats talk about like 80? They didn't talk about arms, but about politics and values, and who had the better political system, et cetera. And I interviewed a number of diplomats and asked one why is all this talk about the merits of the political systems and blaming each other on things they did, but not about arms, but about politics? And he said you have to understand that we are human beings here and, whether we want it or not, it affects us. When someone says something to us, well, your, your country sucks and uh, so that we can put a um, a poker face to that. But it still has an impact. So it makes sense to invest energy into this kind of communication which seems, on the surface, to have nothing to do with the facts. And you, as communications expert, would be able to tell like to give 10 lectures about that.
Dr. Leah OH:Probably yes yeah, yes, it is fascinating Like we're talking about this, but we're actually talking about this, and this is why it's important for the relationship. So, sylvia, I'd love to learn more about your book. Who's in Charge? Lead with Real Power and Create an Impact in a. Chaotic World and I was hoping you could. I have a few questions about it, but I was hoping you could start by talking to us about the inspiration behind this work?
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:Well, it links very much to your first question because it really comes out of more than 30 years of studying power in politics and in organizations, having been part of large organizations and seeing old power, as I call it, being quite dominant. Still, in many places, old power meaning force and control, lose, hiding behind rules rather than being authentic and also sometimes being well, this is what I stand for, rather than saying well, it has been said, etc. And so seeing that old power at play and often not helping the organizations to succeed and also having individual leaders not to succeed. And so I got really curious about, like why does it not work and what could work better. And I was for about 17 years I was responsible for various organizational change, human resources, leadership topics at the European Investment Bank, which is kind of like the World Bank, focusing more on Europe. What I found there was that this fantastic institution was upholding itself back because its leadership did not like, had not fully embraced, like, the more modern way of leading, which is more about really leading with purpose, not only having the purpose as a wall decoration, but actually including the purpose in the day-to-day business, then also being really collaborative rather than saying, well, team, you have to collaborate, but actually rewarding individual contributions and also people elbowing each other, or rewarding also silos. I mean, everyone knows about the silos in traditional organizations and people like moan about them, yes, but then people are rewarded for actually serving these silos. So that we saw, we see going on like also like a really fantastic institution which was proud to serve, like limiting itself because of this old power.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:And then it became even more important when the European Investment Bank received the mandate to become the climate bank. And when you deal with climate, you deal with organizations or companies, politicians who will say on a Sunday afternoon, climate is wonderful and, yes, we should preserve nature and the climate, but on a Monday morning they will think about their pocketbook. And so you have to be smarter and you have to like be more collaborative and like purposeful engaging with your stakeholders and also with your staff, because they actually have to work harder to make this work. So how do you convince people to go the extra mile? And all that made me think already when I was still at the European Investment Bank and helping to create a leadership model that would promote that kind of leadership.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:And then when I left, I focused even more on that, on like helping leaders to transform their leadership, and that's what I do today and that's what became the book and also my method Smart Power to really help people understand, like, how do they really find power to make it really powerful? How do they manage their energy to make it really powerful? How do they manage their energy? Because in this very hectic world, often we get down under because we run behind things and we don't manage our energy. And, like in the book, the third part next to energy and power is legacy. How do we make it meaningful?
Dr. Leah OH:Yes, I love all of what you said, Sylvia. I was thinking what a fascinating kind of assignment you were in in the bank and witnessing all of this old power at play and also recognizing all of the potential, and that's a really big shift. I think if people aren't kind of entrenched in this area, sure on the surface you're like, oh yeah, that's a change. But when a culture is entrenched in that old power, it's really really challenging Because, like you said, people are used to being rewarded for those who did really well with old power, succeeded more quickly than others who didn't, and then we kind of flip that on its head. But so important for transforming the way in which, like you said, purpose first, but also, I think the way in which people relate with organizations, if they make that connection and they stay, can really be a transformative for employees and the organization.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:Yeah, indeed, and it's sometimes not that easy, because when someone has learned to get to the top with old power, then often it's even scary to change that. Was it all wrong? What I did yesterday, exactly? And we have to know that it's a shift in mindset more than in just behaviors.
Dr. Leah OH:Exactly, yeah. So let's keep talking about real power, and in your book that's what you kind of talk about, what this real power is, and I was hoping you could explain to us what real power means to you and then also how leaders can kind of harness it or be mindful of it to make changes, and then also how leaders can kind of harness it or be mindful of it to make changes.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:So for me, real power is not only having the power but doing something with it. That is valuable. That's one thing. The other is real power is the ability to create intended, creative, constructive outcomes. With that I want to say, like a volcano creates destruction, doesn't have power, it's it's like hugely forceful and we can be afraid of it and we have to take account of it, but it's not powerful because it doesn't create intended outcomes. And a kid, for instance, that you have family playing Monopoly and the kid is unhappy that it doesn't win and passes the whole board across the table. That creates an impact, but it's not powerful because it's not the impact that leads anywhere. And so when, as a leader, I only use force and control but I don't create anything, or I just intimidate people but again I'm suboptimal in what I achieve because I create fear and stagnation and chaos etc. Then I'm not powerful. I'm like the volcano or like the kid, yeah exactly.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, I really love those visualizations. When you were talking, I was thinking it's the leader who's like I've got a hammer or a rubber mallet and that's it. Like these are my two tools and you realize there's a whole. You can go to the store and develop so many other tools, there's so many other things at your disposal. But we know that people get comfortable and, like you said, if you've been, if you've climbed the career ladder with these two tools, and then we say, oh, just kidding, there are more.
Dr. Leah OH:That can be a hard shift, but a really important one for the collective shift, but a really important one for the collective, exactly. So let's think about thriving in chaos, and this is something that is I'm sure everyone listening feels this, it will resonate with them. I find that when I'm thinking about chaos and now, like I find myself touching my chest, like I can feel it in my body. So we know there's so much chaos right now, so much uncertainty in today's political world, even in our organizations, families, homes, communities. So, sylvia, what are some key strategies that you recommend for being able to thrive amidst these challenges and kind of maintaining your purpose, you know, even when everything else feels a little bit out of balance?
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:Yes, thriving in chaos. For me, who have been sometimes in chaotic situations, especially in my work life, what has always helped me is to have had a personal practice to keep like my calm and balance overall, like like for many times. For many years I've been meditating, um, and doing like physical practices, and that doesn't mean that I never get nervous or upset, but, underlying, there is a strength that I gain from these personal practices. So I believe, especially in these times where there's a lot of chaos floating around that we cannot influence, that has nothing to do what with what we are doing in our world. To have this personal practice, simply to to feel more healthy and in balance, that really helps. So that's one thing.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:And then and my experience, like in my work, in what I want to do and then not to be like tossed over by things that are happening is, if I know that I'm connected to my purpose, to what I want to achieve and why, then that gives me great strength and stamina. So it's not like something happens and then I I give up. No, if I'm really know what, why I'm doing things and what is my purpose, I will persist, even if it's a bit difficult. And then there's another thing which is thinking about it. It's like like to be able to step back sometimes and see the whole, so not to get like, even when we get stressed, then let's step back and see what's actually happening here, so that allows us to get unstressed even in the stress. And then, finally, I would say connection and collaboration, so not feeling alone, but being together with other, co-creating and in creating solutions, and simply being in connection with people, with humans, so to also have like oh, this was a really bad day. Uh, yeah, can we talk?
Dr. Leah OH:yes, yes, thank you those really. I love how concrete those suggestions are and there are things that when we're listening, like I wrote down purpose and a step back and I really like I connected with purpose because I think, especially when there are different opportunities and so much going on in organizations and I would like to help with that, but I'm doing this, purpose can be kind of that North Star to keep you like fulfilling what you set out to do and then when that project is done or nearing completion, it can just, like you said, to that perspective and taking the step back then to big picture.
Dr. Leah OH:You know what am I not seeing when I'm got my nose down Exactly. Excellent.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:Yeah.
Dr. Leah OH:So helpful. So shifting back to to power, and you mentioned before about smart, smart power. So I know that you are the founder of the smart power method and I'd love to learn more about this, including the inspiration and kind of what goes into Smart Power.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:Yeah. So the inspiration came from, like through my book. I had the privilege to give a workshop at Harvard Alumni Women. It was an online seminar, was about when I was just finishing my book and they said, could you please? And I said what? What a huge honor and privilege. Let me do this.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:And then I was thinking like what part of my book I'm going to talk about? And then I said, well, I'm going to focus on power, but let's make that simple, let's draw it all together so they won't have the occasion to read like half of the book. How to make it simple. And then that's how I came up with Smartphone and adding actually one element that is not so much highlighted in the book, which is the first one, which is systemic. So SMART is an acronym. It stands for Systemic, merging, authentic, personal, relational and Transformational.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:So S-M-A-R-T and systemic means that what we just said said we have to be able, as leaders in this chaotic world, to step back sometimes and also to see the connections between elements and to see the long-term ripple effects. When we don't do that, we get lost in the little details and we are less effective. And maybe 50 years ago it was less important to have a systemic view. Today, it is crucial to have a systemic view. Yeah, we can run a small shop, maybe, without that, but if we are running a larger organization or like a startup, where we have to understand what's going on in the environment, systemic is crucial. So that's the first. Then it's merging. It's about merging power and resources, having the courage to give up some of our control in order to merge it with someone else's zone of influence control to have more power together, and that is sometimes counterintuitive. It feels scary because I know what I control, so let me control it, and I actually think I know better than the others.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:Um, and always just ask us yes, it's a, let me do it. I, I can do this. And to learn, which I actually had to learn, um like not painfully but with difficulties, that I started out also even in the coaching uh like world, working with other coaches to create uh workshops, that I had to be the good student and do it well. And then I learned, wow, it's so much more fruitful if I'm not the good student but if I'm curious what the others have to bring. So then we will together create something that it's like A and B make C, so it's neither A nor B, but it's something that is actually bigger than A and B at C. So that is what merging is about, and it sometimes feels scary but it's very power generating. So that's systemic merging. And then we have authentic personal, which is sitting really at the core of smart. Because if we don't have access to our full, authentic, like real personal power, which very much sits in our body also, like our connection to our body, our emotions, our intuition, being able therefore to show up authentically, then whatever we can think of, we can't really translate it so well into action if we don't have this authentic personal power that sits at the core of leadership level. Then we have relational power.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:For the R, which is the more practical brother of the merging power. It's more like how do I create trust, how do I get into relationship, into connection with others, without yet merging, but being more in the out, there, connecting with others and and and simply fostering relationships and alliances so important? I mean, if we look at today's political landscape also, we can see that actually alliances are really important and we forget them at our own peril. So forget about merging, like sharing something, but simply being a trusted ally, a trusted friend, a trusted colleague, a trusted partner. It's very crucial to our own. Yeah, so that's relational power. The last one is transformational power, which has to do with the power of purpose that we also talked about. Like, we can only transform and go beyond the like transactional little things and really create meaningful impact if we have a purpose. So that's what the smart is about excellent.
Dr. Leah OH:I was just jotting down all these notes because, um, I just love this, because it really kind of flips the old idea of power on its head right, because they're, it was all transactional, we're like a traditional, the old, old way of doing it, um, and we certainly weren't thinking about relationships and be having courage, and I think too, like as you're saying and thinking about this is such a thoughtful, sophisticated way of considering power, but you've done such a beautiful way of framing it in a way that people can access, make sense of it, because then they can actually use it.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:Do something with it.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, we can start to see this change rather than like, oh, that would be nice, wouldn't that be something? So, really, really incredible work, sylvia.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:Thank you.
Dr. Leah OH:I'm going to come back to this. I'm teaching a leadership and power class, a graduate class, actually this summer. Wow yeah, so timely.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:Yeah.
Dr. Leah OH:So thinking more about your smart power innovation. You know that you use this approach to overcome help overcome these old power dynamics, these pain points. Help overcome these old power dynamics, these pain points, and I was hoping you could see us what maybe this looks like in an organization when we're applying your smart power method and helping to transform that traditional approach.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:Yeah. So we talked before about some aspects of the traditional approaches, for instance, the silos, the hiding information rather than sharing information, the not-so-authentic personal power, where sometimes leaders say, yeah, but if I'm more authentic, including more vulnerable, will they then not use that and undermine me, et cetera. Well, of course, you're not going to be blue-eyed and believe everything that people tell you, et cetera, but normally if you show up more truthfully and with greater vulnerability meaning honesty in the end, then you create trust, and trust is a superpower when you can create that. So that is one thing About the silos.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:It's really an old habit of organizations and, as I see it, silos were originally created for good reasons to have checks and balances in organizations. So you had risk management Actually, 50 years ago you didn't even have risk management but you had the control functions. You had sales and marketing and back offices, and each silo had their functions. Believing that their functions were probably the most, was probably the most important one to be taken very seriously. So they had to have a leading voice and others should follow us. So why do they block us if it's frontline? Why do they not listen to us if it's more supporting roles Rather than saying what do we want to achieve together?
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:yes what is our joint goal? How do we make this company, this organization, stronger, more competitive and, for instance, if I take up risk management again, in modern organizations, not how do we block what the sales people do, but how do we help them be safe and sell it better? So, be involved early on, but with a constructive outlook, to create solutions that actually work better, not like against the rules we keep the rules, but we we are like intelligent to see, okay, what is actually possible and make that work, to advise our partners rather than stop them from doing it because we are so important. And that means really perspective shift. Like, do I see myself as the guardian of and what my voice has to be heard, or do I see myself also in a servant? Oh, how can I help my colleagues?
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:And I'm just thinking just comes to my head, soccer game or other sports. I was thinking that, yeah, like, do I have to, to, to, to get the ball into the goal myself? Yeah, or is it a fantastic role actually to pass it and someone else gets it because they're actually better positioned to do so? The winning team is the team that has people who pass and not who want to be the stars who mark the goal.
Dr. Leah OH:Yes, and you know I was thinking this. So I'm coaching my kids' soccer teams now and they're young kids and it's so funny because so often I actually have to yell you're on the same team. It's like the little ones, they all just go together.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:Go after the ball, yeah.
Dr. Leah OH:Yes, they're getting better, but there's a lot of confusion sometimes, like do I run right next to you on the field, do I get open? And when you were talking about that I'm like yes, it's the same team, but so often that can get confusing and back into organizations. It is always funny to me when one department will make policies for another to enforce, but without any communication, without observation, without joint brainstorming. And that's what I was thinking, like you're all on the same team and for us to be successful, to enjoy this win, we need to work together.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:It's a question of trust to start with, but then, when you build the trust, it's like a positive, reinforcing effect. Um, first you have to trust others that they will not demolish your, your, your toy when you, when you get out there. Sometimes in in the corporate world, people don't come forward with things and prepare things in hiding because they feel that others will destroy their beautiful work. So it needs trust. But then when you do it, you actually create trust. So it's a reinforcing model.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, exactly, I love that that. So my next question, sylvia, when I was preparing for our excuse me, for our conversation is looking at a lot of your work and you have this such visionary insight, but also this very pragmatic coaching, and I think that's you're like a unicorn, because I think people tend to I don't like to think in dichotomous terms, but a lot of folks it's easier for them to live in the visionary what could this be? And thinking about what a future, an ideal future, might look like, and there are others who tend to be better with that very pragmatic. This is how we do this. This is how we unpack it. You do a really beautiful job of blending the two and that is so meaningful and I was hoping you could kind of talk to us about you know, what is your practical advice on that? So how do we take some of this? It can be theoretical, it could be, you know, that visionary thought, but how do we actually then start to enact it so we have change in our workday, in our workplace, in our teams?
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:How to actually enact the vision that we have, yeah, exactly.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:That's a great question. It's like when I think of when I work now with senior leaders or back in the time when I was in corporate it's a, it's a longer game, like you have to have a vision and want to go someplace and sometimes it doesn't happen immediately, yeah, so you have to have the patience to start something and then be also accepting when it's not accepted immediately. So, like some people say, oh fantastic, go forward, but then there is resistance a bit later on and then you come back again. But what is important is really to have that vision.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:Actually, I just recalled my dad, who was in his 90s, telling me he's one of the fathers of modern risk management in Europe, and he told me that in the company where he was creating this, he was first told by his boss that's too far-fetched, it was in the 70s, too far-fetched, you don't need to do that. And then someone else told him Mr Roderigo, now keep at it. Yeah, yeah, it's a very good idea, just slow, keep at it, and you have the right vision to do it. And I think that's very important, that we work with vision, but we don't insist that things happen overnight. And that also means that we work a lot in the networks with other people and create alliances. Again, that's super important.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, and that's really helpful. I wrote down long game when you said that and I think it requires some maturity, right, and it requires some self-assuredness and, like you said, patience to say you know, I essentially have this, this map, or it's forming, but it's still that every day, what am I doing on the day-to-day basis to keep moving forward?
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:right.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, a day-to-day basis to keep moving forward, right? Yeah, that's really helpful way of thinking about those, how to connect them and recognizing that it's all the little steps, but you need to know where they're headed.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:It's all the little steps and we need to know where they're headed and we have to be able to maintain ourselves on the way, so not to get frustrated if things don't happen overnight, if we get pushback, et cetera, but to know why we are doing it and then have the like what I said before maybe have practices to keep ourselves energized and resourceful, and that can be very different practices for different people. I know people who go for long walks in nature and others who go to the gym and some like me, who also meditate. There are different ways to do so so that we can maintain ourselves, that we can know how to keep going.
Dr. Leah OH:Yes, yes, yes, you're right, because without that sustenance, right, it can be hard, it can be tough. Yeah, exactly. So let's take a step back and have a little broader view now and thinking about organizational development and I know you have a very extensive experience in organizations and in helping them to grow and develop, and I'm wondering, in your experience, what are some of these crucial elements of organizational development that leaders or organizations often overlook, like they're just not mindful of, but they really should be thinking of?
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:Hmm, you know, I think a really important part is just thinking of, of what peter drucker is not to have said culture eats strategy for breakfast. Yeah, so we, we forget culture very often. How to like we have like systems change and processes change and IT systems, including artificial intelligence. We sometimes forget the people dimension of all that, and that is also the culture dimension. So it's individual people, but then it's also the culture of an organization. How do we change that? And that's very much again about mindset and also micro behaviors, not like now we all use that new tool, but what are the micro behaviors, the micro habits that we need to actually do that?
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:I mean, I have seen, for instance, like really difficult transitions to like more modern back office systems. Like created huge problems because the teams found it so hard and boycotted their managers because they didn't want to do it. Yeah, because they had habits and they felt really confident in what they were doing before and it was not enough just to tell them now, ladies and gentlemen, this is the new tool, because they were scared. So how do we actually help the people to do it differently? And what kind of different cultures? That also because it is different habits, different behaviors, different ways of kind of different cultures. That also because it it is different habits, different behaviors, different ways of thinking, and for that also we need leaders who model behaviors. So if something is not only concerning a small back-office team but the whole organization and we have to see the leader who's actually like leading from the front and showing like I'm doing this myself, yes, yeah, exactly that's.
Dr. Leah OH:I always tell people like you're leading with or without a title, and is much better that you're mindful of this. So you're thinking about how your behaviors, what they're saying to others, how others might be interpreting them, and I think a lot of people, especially title leaders, don't realize that they might inadvertently be encouraging bad behaviors or, you know, hesitant behaviors, or if they're saying things about the system and then getting upset when their people aren't doing it. I mean, that is the definition of a mixed method or mixed uh message that is uh, that is so true.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:I mean a very basic rule, but that sometimes managers, in their own frustrations, don't observe a stack. You have to help your people adopt something new, even if you yourself find it comfortable, uncomfortable or you fight your battle upstairs to do it in a different way. But once it has decided you're there to really help people, do it and not to tell people. Actually, I also don't agree with it which is not very helpful.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, exactly, yeah. Yeah, it's like once they're all doing it and we're integrated, then we might, you know, over coffee or like yep, I also didn't love it, but we're doing it now, Because then we can think more about those relationships too. Right and trust, but all in the right time. So, let's think about so we've talked about org development, and let's think about our leadership skills.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:And.
Dr. Leah OH:I'm wondering, in your experience, what skills should leaders be focusing on so that they're positioned to adapt and continue to evolve? Because we know that, you know, with technology, with politics, with climate, there are so many things that are changing organizations at a really rapid pace today.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:Yeah, as you say, that the first thing that comes to my mind is learning to be a constant learner, because in today's world, if we don't constantly learn, we really lose. Don't constantly learn, we really lose. I see that myself. If I don't use artificial intelligence in my work and use it in a smart way, I become much less effective and efficient than other people who do so same with tools on social media, et cetera, to the degree that you need it. So it's not going after every passion, but to be out there to see. What do I need to learn today and tomorrow in order to thrive in my business? And that also includes leadership. That is what are insights and skills that I need to get to the next level and not to stagnate. And also to get to the next level knowing that the world is evolving. That is really, really important. Then, what we discussed before being able to see, really see the system and not only the particles, and to remind themselves like I'm just getting stuck in the particles here, let's step back and see the system and then the to really to have the courage and mental agility also to go for co-creation, the sense of merging power, to really like to see, like, where can I learn from others? Where can we co-create something? Where I let go of what I think I know and um and create something louder with, together with others.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:And then, of course, that's the whole dimension of personal development. I mean, that's, that's where I am specialized, also as coach, to help people like with the inside out leadership development, because that is really so critical, in particular in an age where we have more and more ai to give the added value of us humans. So why, why should not ai be the leader and I just go on holidays? No, because I am the leader, because I'm a human being and I can do different things which have to do with um and being able to express my feelings, connecting with other human beings, communicating in a, in an authentic way and um, showing up in person, being being authentic in person, um, being able to listen, truly listen as a human being and not like as a machine. All these things are really important and um, I think they become even more important in leadership development than there were maybe 10 or 20 years ago.
Dr. Leah OH:Yes, yes, and I love the word courage and you've mentioned that a few times today and I think it's so important because, you know, the old system of power, in my perception, didn't take a lot of courage, because it was really an equation essentially we have reward or we can have punishment, and that's kind of it. So if you're not walking the walk I want you to, then you're punished, and if you do it, great, you're climbing up this ladder. But in today's organizations and, like you said, even what we want in our communities and our homes, it is collaboration, it is kind of merging of ideas.
Dr. Leah OH:It is being authentic and developing trust. And that can be a really hard shift, especially if you're coming from a traditional way of looking at power and organizations being a figure or not, because I think a lot of people tend to think well, if I don't share information about my job, you can't get rid of me. And that's not true, we know. We know that that happens, so it's better to figure out how do I forge these relationships, and because that that's not as easily replaceable as someone who's just sitting and doing one little tiny part of the organization's work on their own.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:It's a very different um that very different needs today in the field of leadership than it was like 20 years ago. Very easy to to to bark down a corridor or think well, they have to do it because I'm the boss, which, especially with Gen Z today, doesn't work so well.
Dr. Leah OH:No, no, exactly yes. So we started our interview in thinking about your background and you talked about all of the study you've done in political science and in international relations and I love this because I think so many students I work with a lot of students and they think I'm getting this degree and this is going to be my job and that is it, you know, and it's fun to be a little bit further down the road and be like, nope, they're going to be twists and turns, you don't anticipate. But I'm wondering, sylvia, so now where you are now, how has your study and background and expertise in political science and international relations influenced your approach to leadership and executive coaching?
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:now it's probably that then and now, what I see is understanding human interaction and communication is key to success, whether that's in international relations or politics, or in business and organizations. That's really crucial and again, alliances are critical. That's really crucial and again, alliances are critical. So these two have really influenced, like from the early years of my studies, to what I found out there in international relations and politics and what I keep seeing in the corporate world.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, yeah, it's really fascinating. I ended up in undergrad taking an international relations class because it fit in my schedule and it was a general education course and it was the first time I ever realized I had interest in politics, so it was also studying communication and I was like this is interpersonal communication on a much bigger level and I was like this is interpersonal communication on a much bigger level and these are their personalities and this is why it's showing up this way with this particular social entity and this way and this one. So it was really fascinating and I love that you're integrating that in a much deeper way into the work that you're doing.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:And that's also the aspect which is true in politics and in organizations of power and legitimacy, like if everyone believes that you are legitimate not only because you are the boss or you have the power, but because you deliver value to your people. As a politician or as a boss, then people want to follow you and you're powerful, whereas when, at a certain point, they see this guy or this woman, they don't give us anything, people tend to withdraw, and so power is you can hold on to power, you can try to hold on to power. Power, you can try to hold on to power. But being powerful in the social context of politics or business means you have to deliver something. If you don't deliver anything anymore, you lose your power yes, exactly.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah. It is really counterintuitive that trying to hold on to that power actually makes you less powerful. Yes, like the opposite of what your intent.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:Exactly.
Dr. Leah OH:So, sylvia, I have two final questions for you, and this is the way we end all of our episodes of the communicative leader, and these two questions are intertwined. So the first part is for our titled leaders, and then the second part is employees of all ranks, across all industries, and it is, you know, what is the tip or the challenge or the advice for our titled leaders? And then again, what is the tip, advice or challenge for employees of all ranks?
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:As we're talking about communication. What I would say as a heartfelt advice is ask more questions, because the one who asks leads and also because you create trust with it. But you only create trust if you then truly listen, because if you ask a question you don't listen. You're actually undermined. But asking questions and really wanting to know what the other person has to say is very powerful, because you understand the other person better and you determine the agenda. But you also really build trust by listening deeply to the other person and then being able to respond. Yeah, so powerful. So that's what I would say to leaders.
Dr. Leah OH:Okay, and what about our employees of all ranks across industries? Who do you want to leave them with?
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:um, maybe to get really friendly with your emotions. In the sense it's like get to feel, know and manage them, because I hear so often like emotions no, no, that doesn't have anything to do with the workplace. I am very proud because I'm not professional and I can leave my emotions outside and I always say that doesn't work, because your emotions, they come with you, whether you like it or not. They're always there. So they will leak through if you don't know them. They people will perceive that anyway or they will make you tired and stressed if you don't get friendly with them. So it's really invigorating and de-stressing and makes you more powerful, more connected, likable, effective if you get to feel your emotions and know them and then also, therefore, channel them. So I feel angry now, but I feel this feeling, I let it pass and I can find the words to say what I really want to say.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, that is so helpful. You're right, because I think that even 7, 10 years ago we still weren't talking about emotion in the workplace and, like you said, for a lot of people that felt like a point of pride. But I love that idea of to feel them, know them and manage them, and I think people underestimate how much their emotions can tell them Like they can be a detective and say absolutely, I really hate this meeting. And they can figure out. Oh, it's anger.
Dr. Leah OH:And they can figure out why they feel that anger or why they feel that frustration or resentment, and kind of tug on that thread to you know. I think it's a way to further make your work life what you want it to be, if you can say, ah, cause I don't feel heard here, right, so how do I fix this? Um. So yeah, that's really really really helpful advice and not, um, not advice we hear very often in in organizations and, I think, something that we do need to lean more into. So much, so much. Yeah. Well, sylvia, thank you so much for sharing your expertise, your time, with us. I have had such a great time, I've learned so much, and I know that our listeners will as well, and so did I.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau:Thank you, Leah.
Dr. Leah OH:All right, my friends. That wraps up our conversation today. Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose. I'm looking forward to chatting with you again soon on the Communicative Leader.
