The Communicative Leader
On The Communicative Leader, we're making your work life what you want it to be. Do you need years of training or special equipment? Not at all my friends. Simple, yet thoughtful changes in your communication can make great strides in displaying your leadership ability. And why the heck should you care about leadership communication? Well, communication is the yardstick others use to determine whether or not they see you as a leader. Ahhh don't be scared, I got you. We will walk through common organizational obstacles and chat about small, but meaningful communication-rooted changes you can integrate immediately. No more waiting for the workplace to become what you hope it will. Nope. You, my friends, will be empowered and equipped to make those changes. Let's have some fun! Can't get enough?
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The Communicative Leader
From Overwhelmed to Empowered: The Art of Leading without the Hustle
Peggy Sullivan, renowned researcher and author of "Beyond Busyness," shares her journey from being a busyness addict to developing a framework that helps individuals and organizations escape the trap of constant hustle while achieving peak performance.
• Self-described "busyness addict in recovery" whose wake-up call included eating cat food for dinner, a failed marriage, and a stress-related heart attack
• Market research reveals 94% of people are "over the top busy" and don't know how to escape the cycle
• Time poverty is defined as reaching the end of your day feeling your cup isn't full
• The Busy Barometer tool helps identify low-value activities that consume time without providing meaningful returns
• Three-step Busy Busting Framework: subtraction (eliminating low-value activities), mojo making (happiness rituals), and values vibing
• Research shows four core values create fulfillment: energy management, human connection, growth, and authenticity
• Even three-minute "happiness rituals" like cubicle dance parties increased United Healthcare's first-call resolution by 33%
• Setting boundaries around email, meetings, and technology can dramatically improve productivity
• Human connection is vital – one leader saw 26% increase in employee engagement after shifting from transactional to relational leadership
To learn more, visit Peggy Sullivan's website or find her book "Beyond Busyness" on Amazon.
Hey leader! Thanks for listening. For more leadership communication tips, check out https://www.thecommunicativeleader.com/
Hello and welcome to another inspiring episode of the Communicative Leader. I'm your host, Dr Leah oh, and today we have a really remarkable guest, Peggy Sullivan. She is a renowned researcher, keynote speaker and bestselling author of Beyond Busyness. Peggy has dedicated her career to exposing the hidden costs of the relentless hustle culture and instead helping to guide individuals and organizations toward peak performance without sacrificing well-being. In her groundbreaking work, including her widely viewed TEDx talk Eliminating Time Poverty by Doing Less, she has sparked a global conversation about the dangerous obsession with busyness and how it's actually eroding productivity, purpose and, of course, happiness. Peggy's proprietary busy busting framework, trusted by Fortune 500 companies like Google, bank of America and John Hopkins, offers powerful, research-backed strategies to help leaders and teams reclaim their time, their energy and their focus. Beyond her research and keynote speaking, Peggy is an accomplished author and thought leader whose insights have appeared in Inc, Forbes Times and Bloomberg. Her mission is clear to help organizations and individuals break free from the busyness trap, unlock true engagement and lead with purpose. In today's episode, we'll explore how Peggy's innovative strategies can help leaders communicate effectively, build resilient teams and foster a culture of purpose over hustle, if you are ready to escape the cycle of overwhelm and lead with clarity and impact.
Dr. Leah OH:This episode is packed with practical insights and transformative ideas. Let's dive in and have some fun. My friends. Hello and welcome to the Communicative Leader hosted by me, Dr Leah Omilion Hodges. My friends call me Dr OH. I'm a professor of communication and a leadership communication expert. On the communicative leader. We're working to make your work life what you want it to be. Well, Peggy, welcome to the communicative leader. I am thrilled to have you and to learn more. I certainly need this lesson today, as I know many of our listeners do. Before we really dive in, I was hoping you could start by sharing your personal journey, from being a business addict, a busyness addict, to becoming an advocate for overcoming that busyness and achieving peak performance, not at the expense of our well-being.
Peggy Sullivan:Yeah, I mean, the reality is hi, my name is Peggy and I am a busyness addict in recovery, for me there's always been too much to do, too little time to do it, and I had a lot of wake up calls but I didn't really listen to them because I didn't know how to change. I didn't know what the framework was. And so after a pretty significant wake up call like eating cat food for dinner, thinking it was pistachio nuts, and that led to a string of my husband left me because I wasn't spending time with him After six months of being a single mother, I had a stress-related heart attack and I lost out on a job. I wanted Just a whole series of things. I took a step back and I said, whoa, what's going on in your life? And I decided that I really, really wanted to understand this thing called busyness and its pluses and its minuses. So I did a tremendous amount of market research.
Peggy Sullivan:Because our hustle society. They tell us busyness is good, right, it's a sign of importance. You put in more hours, you're going to be more successful. That's the road that we all follow and we believe it. But the reality is, if you look at the numbers, we are not more productive, we are not happier and we are not healthier. Every year, I do market research on the state of busyness in the workplace and these stats are pretty consistent, and a couple of them that, to me, really say something needs to change is 94% of people who work are over the top busy and they don't know how to escape this hamster wheel. They want to, but they don't know how to. So there's definitely a need for this whole thing. People don't have time for self-care and a lot of what we do is truly self-sabotage 83% of the population overbooks their schedule, so they don't have time to actually do their work, which causes after hours and things like that. So there's so much meat and so much data about it. We begin to learn that we are making choices that put us into this conundrum of too much to do and too little time to do it, and I call that time poverty.
Peggy Sullivan:So when I hit that burnout, that blackout, that that stress, that overwhelm, the first thing I did was the market research. The next thing I did was I started testing for a solution, and what I did was I just kept on testing and trying and testing and trying, and in the beginning it was all about me. I didn't want to be a busyness addict anymore, and every time I called myself a busyness addict, people would challenge me and say you're not an addict.
Peggy Sullivan:Addicts are people that addiction is serious and that's about drugs and alcohol and bad habits and things like that. But actually the American Psychiatric Association says an addiction is anything that keeps you what you should be doing from what you should be doing, and because it's kind of like scratching a mosquito bite, you can't help yourself. It is an addiction. And so I started testing out formulas for how to break through myself and it really started working. So then I was on the path of people asking me what the heck are you doing? You're happier, you're healthier, your work's better, and then I started teaching and writing books and doing TEDx's and all that good stuff to share with the world. You know how you can achieve more by doing less, because it's counterintuitive.
Dr. Leah OH:Yes, yes, you're right, it is counterintuitive, but it's one of those things, like you said, when you're doing the research, when you're talking to others, you're like but this is the path right. So people like yourself who are experts and have done this work and I'm really excited to kind of pull up at those strings to learn more about it today. First, you've brought up some statistics that are really alarming and I was wondering if you have other ways that you have seen or experienced, or in all of this market research, what is that cost of busyness to organizations or individuals today? How would you quantify that or make sense of that?
Peggy Sullivan:Yeah, I mean, you can talk to any employer and they will tell you, first and foremost, lack of engagement, which ends up hurting performance. Only 30% of workers that are in the 25 to 40 year old range only 30% are engaged. So that means 70% of people are disengaged. They're just not into what they're doing. They don't feel as though their work supports their values, their purpose, their need, their sense of well-being. So that really hurts, and I think leaders are caught on this busyness treadmill too, because everybody in corporate America is being asked to do more with less and we don't know how. Nobody's given us a roadmap. They've given us things like AI. That's helpful, but there's a learning curve with some of the new things that they've provided. So what is the format that works? And that's what I'm excited to talk to you about today.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, excellent. And another thing I think, before we dive in, you mentioned time poverty, so I was hoping you could define it for us and maybe give us some of those early warning signs when you realize either you or an organization as a whole is getting caught in this trap.
Peggy Sullivan:Yeah, I mean time. Poverty is getting to the end of your day and saying to yourself gee, my cup isn't full. I didn't have time for the things that were really important. And for everybody that's different. It could be you're working on this project that you're really excited about. It's a big project and you got stuck in meetings all day. Or maybe you really wanted to have dinner with your family and you just ended up having to work at the office. Or maybe you're noticing your employees aren't engaged and you want to kind of reignite them.
Peggy Sullivan:There are a tremendous amount of warning signs, but it ends up being stress, overwhelm, lack of engagement, lack of productivity and lack of sense of purpose and just feeling like you're not taking care of yourself. You're taking care of everybody else this feeling about I am out of control and my time is controlling me. We all talk about time management and it's a $10 billion industry, soon to be a $13 billion industry in the next two years. But, yeah, 94% of people don't have time for what's important. So lots of time management elements are really great and we need them and time blocking, but it's not getting us to where we need to go, and that's why I like to shift people's paradigm and to start to think about focus, intention and just choosing the things that are really important. So at the end of your day, you actually make progress.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, yes, I love that and I love the feeling that comes with it, that pride, the satisfaction, and I think too then the hard day's work is something that we feel good about, rather than like kind of beaten or defeated by Right. So true, yeah. So let's go back to that addictive nature that you mentioned and I'm wondering and this is probably surfaced in some of the research you've done and I imagine too, in your personal experiences, but you know, from your perspective, what do you think has kind of fueled this obsessive addiction to busyness in our culture? What is it that you know in societies and organizations that continues to perpetuate this for us?
Peggy Sullivan:Well, first, I think we need to understand that every time we get something done, our brain shoots off a bit of adrenaline, dopamine and we get rewarded. And whether it's gee I just took the garbage out or gee I just finished this major article I was trying to write, it doesn't matter. You get the same hit of adrenaline. So we get so used to that hit of adrenaline. It's important that we tap into it, because when you're trying to overcome an addiction, it's very, very important that you substitute something that gives you pleasure, because addiction gives you pleasure. And so if you don't add something in that makes you happy and that gives you that energy left and that really good feeling, then you're not going to be successful, and that's why that's part of my busy busting framework.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, Excellent and I'm so excited to learn about it. My next question is about your busy barometer, and I think this is a genius idea because I think so many people can recognize oh, here's a problem, but you have taken the steps to help us solve it and to manage it. And with this busy barometer, my understanding it's for organizations to help them to identify these low value activities, and I was hoping you could tell us about this tool and how leaders can use it to foster more meaningful productivity.
Peggy Sullivan:Yeah, there are lots of things that put us into the state of busyness or make us less productive and less in the here and now, and it can range from choices we make with our health, like not eating meals, not getting a good night's sleep. Do you ever try to do something when you haven't slept for a couple of days? It doesn't come as easily, and so it's important that we look at this total of what things compromise what I call low value activities, and there are so many. Maybe you're stuck in the email rabbit hole. Maybe every time you hear ding, ding, ding, you've got mail. You know you're off to doing that. Or maybe you get a lot of interruptions. Your phone rings, you know social media clip, your husband knocking on the door.
Peggy Sullivan:The other day, my husband was knocking on my door, you know. Basically he wanted to talk to me and I was in the middle of an Excel spreadsheet and I was moving and grooving and getting a lot done and I couldn't say no to my husband. I said yes and I'm like sure, dear. And he proceeds to tell me there's no ketchup in the house and our burgers aren't going to have ketchup. Well, let me tell you, it took me 10 minutes to get back into this Excel spreadsheet.
Peggy Sullivan:You know too many meetings. Workers spend 83% of their time in meetings and only 30% of them are productive. The stats are crazy. So the busy barometer asks a series of 21 questions, it takes three to four minutes and it will come back to you and tell you what your low value transactions are and give you some suggestions on how to improve them. And I love to use the busy barometer with organizations because then when I go in and I speak to them or do workshops, I know exactly how their people are spending their time and what is going on in their particular culture to help me come up with recommendations. So we learned step number one in the busy busing process, which is subtraction, by using the busy barometer to help us identify our low value activities, because when you take away things that aren't important, you have time and energy for the things that are.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, and I imagine too, then we have the engagement, because our time is spent on something that is more exciting, or what we see has greater value than kind of getting through the slug right. Very true, very true. Your busy busting framework and I love this. So it includes subtraction, mojo making, values, vibing, energy management. I was hoping that you could kind of walk us through these components and kind of tell us how do leaders implement some of these strategies to help reduce that busyness? And I think when that busyness is reduced, then we have more clarity, right, so there are is reduced, then we have more clarity right, so there are some really positive benefits waiting for us on the other side of busyness, absolutely so.
Peggy Sullivan:We already talked about step one in the process, which is subtraction, and you can go to my website and use the busy barometer. Step number two is what I call mojo making. We tend in our society to think of happiness as a destination, a thing. I'm going to be happy when I get the job, I'm going to be happy when I get married, I'm going to be happy when I get a new car. But the problem with that is it takes us out of our control and the reality is happiness is a superpower.
Peggy Sullivan:I wrote my first book about happiness and the neuroscience of it, and what I learned is that when we are happy, our brain lights up like a Christmas tree and it sends neurotransmitters to our body, giving us more focus, more energy, more likability. We fight off chronic disease, we live longer lives, we actually are able to focus for longer periods of time. It makes our brain work a little bit better. There's just all these amazing things. So I encourage people to not wait for happiness, but to make it happen and to create their own happiness rituals.
Peggy Sullivan:So I do these one to three minute little things throughout my day that just light me up and they're simple, they're low cost, low resource. Maybe I, maybe I will um, you know, get up in the morning and I'll put my fuzzy pink sleep slippers on and I'll have a Peggy Sullivan dance party with my favorite songs, and it just puts me in a great place and I'm ready to start my day. And, and then I'll get to maybe around 11 o'clock where I'm starting to be, you know, to maybe around 11 o'clock where I'm starting to be, you know, a little bit tired, and I'll take a break. And that break, my favorite break, is dark chocolate, where I actually involve my senses and I get a couple of pieces of dark chocolate, I smell them with my eyes closed and invoke my senses with my eyes closed, and invoke my senses, and then I pop them in my mouth and I just focus on the flavor of the candy and I do that for three minutes and I'm telling you it's like you're pushing the reset button right then and there. And so that is happiness.
Peggy Sullivan:Rituals are so easy. I brought happiness rituals into the workplace when I worked at United Healthcare and we did them twice a day and their employee metrics employee engagement went up. But also what went up 33% was first call resolution a big, big stat in the customer service world. So by taking these little happiness breaks, people are more productive and more focused and have more energy at the end of the day, yeah.
Dr. Leah OH:What's an example of one, excuse me, that you did in the organization at United. Can you share what that might look?
Peggy Sullivan:like, yeah, we did all sorts of things. Quite honestly, the favorite thing that people love to do was cubicle dance parties.
Dr. Leah OH:I knew you were going to say it. I knew. I was like she's going to say dance. I'm like yep, yeah.
Peggy Sullivan:Quite ironically, other departments caught on to it and people started doing it. But it could be something as simple as I've got a joke to tell we're going to celebrate somebody's birthday. One time we made we all for three minutes got out crayons and paper and we made cards for different nursing homes. It was just a whole host. We got a team together that put these things together. So it was things they wanted to do. But the only rules of these happiness rituals was they didn't couldn't cost a lot of money and they had to be completed in three to four minutes.
Dr. Leah OH:Yep, I love that and, like you said, low cost in terms of the finances and in terms of time. So I think so often we think self-care. I think people think it has to be indulgent, it has to be time consuming, it has to be this big planful thing and certainly sometimes it is and it maybe should be, but we miss out when we're not taking those. You know be should be, but we miss out when we're not taking those. You know two to four minute breaks just to you know, perk up again.
Peggy Sullivan:Yeah, you know, I do this thing with audiences because I love creating experiences with organizations and many times when I'm giving a workshop or something, I will ask everybody to stand up and to kind of shake it all out, and then I'll ask them to yell as hard as they can. I got this and it's amazing to me when I go one, two, three, please say this how everybody in the room lights up and they have big smiles on their face and it's just a mantra. It's just a simple three-word mantra and it really helps and it really works.
Dr. Leah OH:That is amazing. I really, really love that and I will be using that and thanking you when I do so with this, peggy, I love all of these. As an organizational scholar, I think this is so important, and we're speaking to the human side of employees, not their performance-based output. But I imagine sometimes this is met with some resistance, especially at higher levels or in older organizations that have really embraced busyness as their model, whether they're aware of it or not. So I'm wondering, in your experience, what are some practical ways that you can, you know, help leaders to motivate their teams to shift away from busyness and begin to prioritize well-being and purpose?
Peggy Sullivan:Well, I think really the three-step process, and we didn't talk about the third step. We talked about subtracting low-value activities. So employers encouraging their teams to not spend time on things that don't matter is really important, and that means their responsibility to look at all their meetings and to say does this meeting add value? Do people get value out of it? Because if they don't, there's no purpose to that. I worked with one executive who ended up he had 4,600 people reporting to him. He ended up sending out a email about email protocol and he said you know, we've all gotten into this thing where we'd like to email people so they know what's going on, or to cover our pretty little behinds. And what if we just stopped doing that? And we asked ourselves before I type an email, do I get? Will I give value, or will I get value from getting that out? And if the answer is no, why are you writing the email? He cut his email down from his organization by 72%, wow. And then there's the mojo making and the happiness rituals.
Peggy Sullivan:But I find, when people feel as though they have a purpose at work and that their values are honored, that that is a big game changing, and so I developed this thing that I call values management, not time management, and I did some research because you know values is kind of like what do I value? You know people say I value trust, I value, you know, honesty, I value family, and I like to turn that whole thing about what do you value upside down to what makes your cup full at the end of the day, what lights you up? And I researched 12,000 people to ask them and what I found was that there are actually four core values that do just that. One is energy management, and that's got to do with your mood, it's got to do with self-care, it's got to do with the voices in your head. That's one of the values. Another one is human connection. We have gotten into this thing of not connecting on a human level. We connect socially through social media, but we're not doing this type of thing that really makes a difference. So human connection is really important.
Peggy Sullivan:So is growth. That's the third value that is most important in terms of feeling like your cup is full, because my dad used to say toots a day without learning something new is a lost opportunity. And I always say, dad, why do you say that? And he'd say, when we learn, we can do hard things, we flex our resiliency muscle and we get less stressed. So that's why growth is another one of the core values less stressed, so that's why growth is another one of the core values.
Peggy Sullivan:And then, the last but not least, is authenticity, and I like to turn authenticity on its head and really think about we instead of me, because when we think about being authentic, we think about honoring what's important to us, but authenticity really means respecting other people different ways and being open-minded. And the reality is, when we work together and we blend the best thinking of a lot of people, we go so much further, so much faster, and that's why authenticity. So just, you know, gauging and making sure you had those four things in your life your energy management, growth, authenticity and gee, I'm having a Human connection.
Peggy Sullivan:I wrote them down. And human connection no, I keep a busy report card every week, about two times a week. I just write down those four values and I grade myself and if I'm falling down with one of them human connection I'm like doing way too much work and not connecting. I will focus on that for the next week. I will hard code it in my schedule and it just keeps me going. But it keeps my life purposeful and it's a great tool for organizations to let their to give their employees a way to figure out the yes and the no's how do I spend my time and how do I make sure it's on something that's meaningful.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, I really I love the report card idea because I think you know so many people engage in some form of reflection, and some structured, some not structured. But I think in using this, this clear criteria, it becomes a lot easier to recognize like, ooh, my energy management has been a little bit off and maybe that's why I'm feeling like this. But when we do these things we can catch these early signs and make some changes before there are consequences.
Peggy Sullivan:Yeah, the whole busy busting framework was meant to be micro steps where you do something small and feel the benefit from it immediately. You subtract low value activities, you get a couple of hours back in your life, you do some mojo, making some happiness rituals. It lights you up, it makes you happy, things get to be fun and then the values vibe being the final piece. All of a sudden you have a sense of purpose and you're aligning how you're spending your time with what's important. So you know, these three steps were very intentional. It took me a long time to find them, but they really work. And they do relate back to bottom line metrics performance metrics, performance, employee engagement. They are things that take away stress, overwhelm, burnout, all the things that are going on in the world today, because, let's face it, we all have to do more with less, and so let's step into a framework that makes that really possible.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, oh, I love that. And my next question kind of piggybacks on that and I seem thinking about leadership communication and you've already shared this really powerful example of the leader who sent an email about emails and like if it is not giving or receiving value, then we're not going to do it. But I'm wondering what other you know things? Have you seen where leaders can communicate this importance of doing less but doing so effectively, so that it starts to kind of overhaul that culture?
Peggy Sullivan:What are those messages? Yeah, I mean, one thing that I often do is I will pull my employees into a room and I'll ask them to brainstorm about their pain points what are your pain points? And we throw them up on a board and then we say, okay, so which ones are the most common throughout all of us? And then we work on what to do to get rid of them. Work on what to do to get rid of them. So it all of a sudden is a shift in paradigm where your employees know that you want to enable them, you want to help them, and it also senses this is a time of change and it opens up conversations. Like you know, are all of the meetings that we have? Are they fruitful, are they meaningful? And if they're not, you know, let all of the meetings that we have, are they fruitful, are they meaningful? And if they're not, you know, let's figure out another way to exchange the information if it's valuable. And so a lot of it is about really enabling your employees to have the time, the energy and the tools they need to really do their job. So many times in corporate America we get in their way. We don't realize that we're asking them to do a lot of low-value things and even just the human connection.
Peggy Sullivan:I love telling people about the story of a colleague of mine who worked at Blue Cross and Blue Shield. His name was Randy and he headed up sales and marketing for a very large Blue Cross Blue Shield franchise and he had a huge opportunity to bring in a big customer. And he put all this pressure on himself to build a proposal, a plan that just would really make the particular client say yes to Blue Cross, blue Shield. And as he was getting closer to when the proposal was due, he realized he just didn't have that. So he brought everybody into the conference room and asked them to work late to get this proposal done. And as they were working late, they were working in Buffalo, new York and an hour into them working in the evening, the security guard came and said hey guys, you're in a windowless conference room, it's a snowstorm out there, there's a travel ban, you can't go anywhere. And Randy's like, oh, this is great, we'll get my project done.
Peggy Sullivan:And then he looked around the table and he saw everybody was exhausted and it hit him that his relationships with his employees were transactional. So what he decided to do was. Instead of spending that time working, they would get to know each other more, talk about the things they loved, the things they didn't like, what was important to them, just really, really bond. And for Randy, at the end of that he sensed his team was just. They knew each other better. And people talked about what an amazing night that was. But when Randy went to measure employee engagement in his particular department, he was always at the bottom and this caterpilled his department way up. Their employee engagement improved something like 26% just because they knew each other. They had each other's back. They exchanged some roles and responsibilities, they were working like a team and it really made a huge difference, yeah.
Dr. Leah OH:What a powerful aha moment and kudos to Randy, because I think a lot of leaders would be like, wow, okay, I see this, but we still need to do the proposal right. Like that still would have remained in the driver's seat and that's really incredible that he was able to say nope, I need to shift.
Peggy Sullivan:Yeah, I mean they got it done. They just didn't get it done exactly when he wanted to, but they got it done.
Dr. Leah OH:Yeah, exactly so, peggy. I have two final questions for you and these are interrelated, and this is the way we end all episodes of the communicative leader, and it's looking at advice. So the first part of the question is you know, advice, a tip or challenge for our friends out there who are entitled leadership roles, like our managers, our directors. And then the second part of the question is what is the you know, the advice, tipper, challenge for our friends who are employees of all ranks, across all industries, not necessarily in a titled leadership position?
Peggy Sullivan:Yeah, I mean I think in terms of my advice for leaders is we lead, we make choices. We can set a environment up for our employees to be very successful. When we understand their low value activities, when we put a little fun into their work, when we understand their pain points, all of a sudden we're enablers for our employees and we get every single ounce of employee working towards the end game and metrics and that makes a huge difference. And we also have the opportunity to change some of the game, because what we're doing isn't working. It's been habitual, but too many meetings, too much email. You know, these are all things that we need to grab control over and it is possible. It's just about reframing things. And then I'd say for the employees is that if you use the busy busting process, you will feel relief right away. You can have your managers implement it or you can implement it on your own. You have control.
Peggy Sullivan:Busyness doesn't have to control you. You should control your life and focus on what's important, and if anybody wants to read more about it, they can go to my website or pick up my book Beyond Busyness it's on Amazon. Or pick up my book Beyond Busyness it's on Amazon, and I love. People want to bring me into their organizations to do workshops and consulting, all of that stuff. It really gives me a lot of joy to help people who were just like me, because it does make a difference and addiction is something that we never get rid of. I'll always be an addict in recovery and when I start getting too busy, I go back to my three steps, not my 10 steps. I go back to my three steps and it lightens the load. It always works Amazing.
Dr. Leah OH:Well, peggy. I have learned so much today. I certainly can find myself in that busyness hamster wheel more often than I like and even preparing for our conversation. I feel like I picked up tools, and certainly even more now. So thank you for sharing your time and your expertise with us, your wisdom. I know, like I said, this is helping me and I know it's going to help so many of our listeners as well.
Peggy Sullivan:Thank you, Leah. It was a pleasure to be here today.
Dr. Leah OH:All right, my friends. That wraps up our conversation today. Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose. I'm looking forward to chatting with you again soon on the Communicative Leader.
