Conversations as Cultural Infrastructure: Building Culture Through Dialogue with Emma Gibbens

Culture doesn’t break because people don’t care. It breaks when teams lose the ability to talk honestly with each other.

I’m joined by global strategist and author Emma Gibbens, creator of Anatomy of Conversation and co-founder of Acknowledge This, to dig into a leadership communication truth that changes everything: organizational culture is built in conversation, not in posters, policies, or polished talking points. We explore why “policy-first” communication often turns into shelfware, how repetition actually works, and why purpose alignment is something you invite people into rather than push onto them.

Emma shares practical tools leaders can use in high-pressure workplaces to move from control to curiosity, including language that gets you on the same side of the problem and simple prompts like “tell me more.” We also unpack the anatomy of a conversation using her campfire metaphor and the difference between having the right content and showing up with the right conduct. If you care about psychological safety, employee engagement, and workplace trust, this part is gold.

We close with culture diagnostics you can spot immediately: over-politeness, strategic fog, silence in meetings, and innovation theater where input goes nowhere. We also talk about making culture change fun and meaningful, and why real DEI conversations can’t be replaced by party-planning energy. If you’re ready for more honest dialogue and less fluff, hit play, then subscribe, share with a leader on your team, and leave a review with the question you’re going to start asking this week.

Transcript

Welcome And The Culture Problem

Dr. Leah OH 0:00

Welcome to another episode of The Communicative Leader. I'm your host, Dr. Leah O. We've all heard the buzzwords, organizational culture, engagement, and alignment. But for many leaders, culture feels like something that lives on a poster or in a policy manual rather than in the daily reality of their teams. Emma Gibbons argues that the most workplace problems are actually communication problems in disguise. Culture fails not because of bad intentions, but because people lack the literacy to speak up, listen deeply, or talk across differences. If your organization's dialogue is stalled, you aren't just losing productivity, you're losing the human connection that drives innovation. Today's guest is a global strategist and author who has worked inside some of the highest stakes conversations on the planet, from presidential campaigns to global pandemic responses. Emma Gibbons is the author of Anatomy of Conversation and the co-founder of Acknowledge This. She helps leaders move past fluff to have the honest, raw discussions that actually shift culture. In today's episode, we're diving into conversations as cultural infrastructure, how to move from control to curiosity, and the seven conversations every organization needs to have in order to rebuild trust. Let's dive in and have some fun. I'm a professor of communication and a leadership communication expert. On The Communicative Leader, we're working to make your work life what you want it to be. Oh, Emma, thank you so much for joining us on The Communicative Leader. You have such an interesting past and all these experiences and what you're doing now. And I cannot wait to learn from you and hear more. And so I know you've spent the last 15 years shaping cultures through conversations and across the globe. So from out back town halls to Silicon Valley. In your work, you mentioned that culture lives in conversation, not in posters and not in policies, which I love. And so, in your experience, why does a policy-first communication style, why does that fail to drive this real lasting change that people are looking for?

Emma Gibbens 2:29

Yeah, and we have to acknowledge like it's sort of a trope now, you know, particularly in like local government's always the example I think of. You know, when you work on your five years to strategic plan and then it just goes and sits on a shelf and never gets dealt with. So the reason why the way I like to think about it is that policy is like the blueprint, it's sort of what we want it to look like. But when it comes to building anything, you know, oh goodness, we ran out of two by fours, or oh, the the widgets are late getting here, or that room doesn't actually fit in the way we we spec'd it out, you know. And so how it's built and is actually how it becomes alive, how it becomes functional. And then once it's built, then how is it lived in, how is it maintained? And those aren't things that a policy document can accommodate for really. Yeah. Um, and so making it yeah, more embodied and and and sustainable, really.

Dr. Leah OH 3:18

Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. And I love that too, that idea of the poster, right? Because I think there's so many instances where people think, you know, because I'm a communication scholar. So it's like, well, I've posted it, or it's taped to the wall, so it's done. Like, wash my hands of it, communication has occurred, we're good.

Campaign Lessons For Purpose Alignment

Emma Gibbens 3:38

And you're like, no. And there's a fallacy here. There's a couple of things from campaigning that I've really been useful. When I was going through campaigning in 2008, the adage was that you need about six touches for the voter to finally hear your message. And almost like by the time you're sick of saying it, it's just getting penetration. Okay. Nowadays that's almost doubled to 12 touches. And so yeah, you need to repeat the message so much more. Um, good to know.

Dr. Leah OH 4:02

And that brings us to my next question. So you started your career working to elect Barack Obama, and later you ran a major campaign for marriage equality in Australia. So I'm wondering how can a leader bring that campaigner's urgency and I think too, their communication focus to their internal messaging without burning out the very humanity, right? That we need to make this movement successful.

Emma Gibbens 4:28

Yeah. And I think I just want to name it. You said common movement and that that common purpose, those purpose conversations in the paper that I sent you, and then referencing the seven conversations that shape culture. The first one's purpose. And in all my conversations since then, purpose is the conversation that people both say is most important, but also the one that they struggle with or aren't having. And particularly the way that I described in a campaign, it's that sense of alignment and how do we all get rallied around this common goal? And it's not something that you can there's a real tone thing here. You can't really push people into it. You have to pull them into it. You have to invite them in to be part of that common purpose. And it's super motivating when you have a common purpose. And I would, I would encourage you to think as a leader creatively about how that how that gets enacted, you know, not just like a big inspirational TED talk speech. It's creating challenges and competition, maybe having a common enemy, even if it's made up, like to be, you know, you can you can make it arbitrary and it still rallies people as those sort of um systems within us.

Dr. Leah OH 5:33

Yeah, yeah. I love that. It's like you said, I think the the keyword there is common, like that common goal, the common purpose, the common enemy, right? This common sense of camaraderie over an office competition. And I would add, especially now, particularly in the state's common ground.

Emma Gibbens 5:49

So, how do you bring people together into this song place to look forward together? I know it's one of the pieces we're really missing in dialogue in the US. Yeah. And it's funny because, like, yeah, anyway, I can go down that round later. That's really not here. Yeah.

The Anatomy Of Conversation

Dr. Leah OH 6:03

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about your book, The Anatomy of Conversation. And I'm so excited to, I haven't had a chance yes, to read it as a piece. Yeah. Oh, that'd be amazing. Um, so I know we have a lot of executives, we have a lot of HR leaders who listen into our podcasts. So I'm wondering from your expertise, Emma, how does dissecting the anatomy of an interaction help this help any organization move past those surface level that talk that we do into meaningful dialogue instead?

Emma Gibbens 6:39

And there's so much fear around conversations, right? They're they're naturally emotive, but also they cannot be controlled. In my book, I use the uh fire, a campfire is the metaphor for a conversation because it's an organic thing. It's going to you can prepare, you can have the pail of water nearby and get the logs set up, but ultimately it's gonna go a certain direction. And so understanding the structure helps you get a bit of a deep understanding of those moving pieces and what levers you can pull. It really helps those people with an analytical mind understand something that is chaos and and unpredictable. And I also find that by understanding, you you get a sense of how to prepare for the conversations because again, I think a lot of people think that they'll just wing it or like, oh, we'll just we'll figure it out as we go, and and actually preparing a conversation with intention makes it go so much more successfully. And the other distinction I want to pull out too is that there's so there's the structure and the what to do. But then I personally think more importantly, there's the how to be, you know, the conduct versus the content. Because you can say the words, AI could say the words, right? AI is really good at helping us to figure out the structure and what questions to ask and how to frame it. But the how it's delivered, you know, it's not uh a trope again, is like this is a safe space, is what people say, rather than being a safe space. And it's that that tangible aspect of a conversation that's even harder to teach. And the model I use briefly is to glow, to bring generosity, love, openness, and wonder is how you facilitate being. Okay.

Dr. Leah OH 8:11

Yep. Yeah, that's great. Cause I think too, that's one of the hardest aspects is you said you have the anatomy, and I'm thinking about this fire and thinking about like the proper way that I would build it. But you're right that like how to be in those nonverbals and even those verbals, like what am I going to do to let people know it is safe, that I am listening, that I'm I'm approaching this with curiosity rather than judgment. So that's really I love that acronym.

Emma Gibbens 8:42

Thank you. And it's it's something too where it's just like listening, right? Where if you go in with the intent of, I'm gonna be a good listener, and then you go, yep, bobblehead, yep, verbal confirmation every couple of seconds, yep. But you aren't actually listening, you're focusing on the activity of listening. So similarly, like you can't go in with like, okay, I'm gonna be a safe space. Yep, I'm gonna create openness and vulnerability. Yep. No, you have to just it's actually much more of a settling into an energy, which again takes practice, but it yeah, that's why I would emphasize the effort.

Language That Signals Curiosity

Dr. Leah OH 9:12

Yeah, yeah, I love that. And I always I love that I think about communication as a practice, right? Like anything we can strengthen it with time and intention. Yeah, I call it a craft. So yeah, same, same, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So thinking more about curiosity. So you help leaders step out of this into a mindset of curiosity, and that's over control, kind of trying to push that old mindset away. So, in this high-pressure corporate environment, we know we're always looking at metrics. What is the specific language a leader can use to signal that they're curious about their team's perspective rather than just trying to force alignment?

Emma Gibbens 9:52

Again, this comes from campaigning experiences, particularly persuasion conversations. But I would say the the biggest tool you can do is bring them alongside to get on the same side as them. So you're both looking at the problem together rather than being in opposition. So you can either bring them your side or go to their side. So that might be hey, you know that we have as a team larger Q4 targets for our sales. We're currently behind. Do you have any ideas of what we could do to meet those goals as a team? Or is anyone having something that's working well? Or you could go to their side and say, hey, we've increased the sales targets for each of you. Like, how are you feeling about that? Where do you feel the overwhelm? Is there any sticky points? You know, and so becoming when you go alongside someone, you're then two people looking at the problem together. Not that they are the problem, but the situation is the the situation becomes the common enemy.

Dr. Leah OH 10:43

Yeah, yeah. I love that. It's just a small tweak, but a really powerful one. Excellent. Yeah. So let's think about friction. So I know that you specialize in kind of turning dialogue into real change, and especially across cultural divides, and that is no easy feat. And Emma, I'm wondering how a leader can help teams get honest and unstuck when they're facing raw discussions that honestly most organizations and most people, most families, most couples avoid, right? This isn't just an org problem, but it comes with us into our organizations.

Emma Gibbens 11:19

Yeah. We'll never, we'll never be able to work with conversations, hey.

Dr. Leah OH 11:23

Yeah, exactly.

Connection Before Hard Conversations

Emma Gibbens 11:24

Yeah. I think the thing that gets overlooked is again, there's a real intention in the Western world, in capitalism, if you want to go that far towards productivity and pushing and this again, this effort. And so when there's something that's a problem, we want to go and we want to fix it. And again, I would encourage you to pause. And the most foundational thing to do before you get into those deeper, more difficult topics is to create connection, right? Because connection builds trust. And with that trust, you feel safe to say things. You feel like you can say something that might be uncomfortable or that you'll be exposed. So you have to create that safety through trust and through connection. So even taking a couple of minutes at the beginning to have some play, have an experience, a shared experience together, asking questions or standing up, moving around the room, something that breaks the pattern of the normal dialogue and the normal routines, but also gets people to see each other as humans first.

Dr. Leah OH 12:21

Yeah, that's so helpful. And I'm wondering, you know, when you're thinking about connection first, and I love that idea of integrating it before these meetings or discussions, what are some things that you've seen worked well in terms of player of experiences to kind of kick this off?

Emma Gibbens 12:38

I mean, I'm conversations, gal, so questions. Yeah.

Dr. Leah OH 12:41

Yeah.

Emma Gibbens 12:42

Um, but even ones like one of the most successful questions I run in my keynotes when I'm doing large conversations and conferences is share a scar story or a crazy injury story. Everyone's got one. And like I love it because the room erupts and someone's like, like, look at my toe, or like pulling up their shirt, like, here's the shark bite. Like it just ignites people. And so there's this energy, and people are connecting around a common thing that's, yeah, sure, not work-related, but we're we're creating a bond. Yeah. And it works across generations and cultures too. That's why it's really important.

Dr. Leah OH 13:15

I love that. Because you're right. That's something I would like. I've never had that conversation at work or at a conference, but I can see how you can immediately connect with others. And the goal, too, is not to be just seeing someone in that title, in that role they fulfill, but to see them as a person. Yeah, because it's how funny. It must be funny to be watching that part.

Emma Gibbens 13:40

Oh, it's my favorite. And then you kind of get like, okay, anyone have a ripper story in the room? And you get some crazy tales. So, and again, if they don't have a good story, they know a good story on behalf of someone. So you're getting like the secondhand best cream of the crop sort of tales. Yeah.

Signs Culture Is Only Performative

Dr. Leah OH 13:56

Yeah, that's awesome. So let's look at conversations as infrastructures. And I really love that idea. And I think for a lot of folks, especially introverts or those who have lower power, knowing that there's an infrastructure is really gold and you know, helping them to feel empowered. But we you suggest that organizations they don't necessarily need another strategy, they just need a better cultural infrastructure. And so, Emma, I'm wondering in your work, you know, what are the communication blocks that you've seen that signal a culture is only being stated rather than actually practiced?

Emma Gibbens 14:34

And as you reflect it, I'm having a moment of irony where I'm like, I'm a strategist. Like strategy is my number two clicked in strength finder, right? So, like strategy is important. I'm not backing strategy, but strategy is the again, the idea, the framework. It doesn't actually have the tools to sustain the intent of the strategy because naturally it will be challenged, it will be tested. So some of the signals that I see when or like when I'm diagnosing if a culture is vibrant, if it is a good infrastructure, there's a couple of one is like over politeness. Over politeness is kind of the difference between nice and kind. Over politeness is actually a shell in a surface-level transactional way of engaging. It doesn't have any richness, openness, um, honesty to it. The other one is strategic fog. Like, so what is our priority right now? Oh, we have 10 priorities. Well, priority, the def the etymology of the word is priority makes me above all others. So pick one above all others. Like, um, so this sort of strategic fog means that the culture doesn't have a common purpose or the purpose or priority isn't known. Another signal is silence, especially in a high control culture where it's just like command and control. And certainly you need compliance in certain scenarios. You know, I worked in the COVID communications team here in Western Australia. Like, I get you need compliance at times, but if there's an overly silent culture or one where you know two people always talk in a meeting, that's another signal that it actually isn't psychologically safe or engaging for everyone in the room. Um, and the other one that I added like is kind of like innovation theater. Like, you know, you know, like, oh, we have such a rich culture and we do so much brainstorming and like here's a hackathon. But it's hollow because the input doesn't go anywhere. There's no actual influence, it doesn't actually matter. And again, if you're already feeling like you have low power and then you're devalued that your voice, time, and effort isn't taken on board. Better to not do it.

Dr. Leah OH 16:31

Yeah, exactly. That reminds me when I joined an organization, apparently there was always an annual retreat. And when I was new, I was like, this is great. We did great work. And a a more senior colleague is like, oh, and we will never see this again. And but we're we're gonna do it again next year, and we're gonna do it again the year after that. And and I was like, Oh, yeah. So it went from it could have been this really powerful thing that I was so excited about to then just like, oh, you've taken me away from my actual work. I've already had this brainstorm for the last three years. What are we doing here?

Emma Gibbens 17:06

Yeah. And and think about all that energy. So, like, again, the the process of consultation engagement is really rewarding because you create such energy. But then if you, you know, don't use that energy, it it not only does it fall, it almost implodes and makes it a caustic effect or eroding. Exactly.

Dr. Leah OH 17:25

So, Emma, you have trained over 40,000 people and how to listen deeply and lead with authenticity. And also, thank you for that work. It changes workplaces. So, I'm wondering, in your experience, you know, if we have a leader who is making this commitment to communicate this new culture strategy, how do they do so without making employees feel like it's just one more top-down mandate?

Emma Gibbens 17:51

I think one thing just leaders be aware of is like what's their true motivation or intent. I think the most exaggerated example is the leader who's going around being like, look, I did a thing and this is amazing. You know, applaud my ego. But yeah, from when it comes to bottom-up change, there's sort of two principles I keep in mind: make it fun and make it meaningful. Making it fun is about making it like engaging so people want to be a part of it. It's something out of the norm, again, breaking that pattern. And it's, you know, it's not having cupcakes, it's a scavenger hunt or video submissions or a competition with prizes, even if the prize is bragging rights. Like just keeping it fun. People love play, you know, we are all these little kids inside, and then making it meaningful. That's sort of I think a lot of the diversity, equity, and inclusion work. And you know, we've kind of seen an anti-wokeness wave. And I've worked in this space for a number of years, but one of my bugbears is that DEI became a party planning committee. Oh, it's Idahoit Day, it's Pride Month, it's Black History Month. Let's throw a cupcake and get a speaker in. Like it wasn't actually meaningful conversations about race, sex, gender, you know, judgment, really. And so, how do you make it a meaningful conversation in order to bring people in and engage with it uh in a meaningful way, to be redundant and use the same word.

Dr. Leah OH 19:16

Yeah. I know, and I think you're I love that in terms of it being fun and people wanting to be a part of it. And I like too that idea that we're showing them, we're not just telling them, right? Things things are going to be different and they're going to get to experience that.

Emma Gibbens 19:32

Yeah. And also I'd I just suggest, too, like it doesn't always have to be the leader, like recruiting other messengers, having champions within the organization, even recording like different voices at different levels who are sharing their perspective of how this impacts them or why they get around it. And I suppose it's the most extreme example, like if you then you'll have a total sense of ownership over it. You won't have to advocate or campaign for it. It will be the communities.

Ask Questions And Build Courage

Dr. Leah OH 19:58

Yeah, yeah. Man, what a beautiful thing. I so the dream, dreamline. It's not all it doesn't happen quite like that. Yeah, yeah. So, my last two questions, this is the way we end all episodes of the communicative leader. And these two questions kind of work hand in hand. And the first part is asking, you know, what do you want to leave our titled leaders with? Whether it's an advice, a challenge, or a tip. And then the second part of the question is, you know, that advice challenger tip that you want to leave for employees of all ranks and across all industries.

Emma Gibbens 20:32

Yeah. It both both both have the same tidbit today is ask questions. And particularly for the leaders, again, asking questions opens up the conversation rather than closes it down. It moves you from that role of authority and it's it's it's not undermining your decision-making power. It doesn't mean you have any less, but it does open up the conversation and bring people in. One of my go-to phrases is tell me more. It buys you time to figure out what to ask next. Yeah. And there's lots of other great questions you can use. And then from an employee perspective, um, as you said, we're all lonely, you know, we all are craving connections. So, you know, why don't you reach out next time you're in the the lunchroom waiting for your meal to microwave or you're walking to grab a coffee, ask someone a connection question. And sure it could be the what are you doing this weekend, or what are you doing for fun? Or it might be like, hey, do you have any crazy injury stories? Yeah. Yep. You know, just something fun to meet someone new and build a relationship across the organization.

Dr. Leah OH 21:34

Yeah. Yeah. And you're right, because then we have trust, we have connection, and it's a lot easier to navigate difficult conversations, even positive conversations with people that you trust and have a connection with.

Emma Gibbens 21:48

And I guess for both the the oh, one last piece is though, you know, we can't fix what we can't talk about. So go forth courageously. You know, courage is having fear and taking a step anyway. You're gonna feel the fear. Yeah, it's a totally normal feeling, but the longer you sit in it, the more it calcifies. So get into it and and take that action, take that step because it's like a muscle. You know, the more reps you do, the easier it gets.

Dr. Leah OH 22:12

Yes, exactly. Emma, thank you for sharing your time with us, your stories, your experiences. I really appreciate the good work you're doing. And from a communicative perspective, thank you. You know, that that really makes a difference in people's lives and they come home happier or less stressed. I mean, it we really can see meaningful change when organizations are nicer places to work. Absolutely, totally agree.

Emma Gibbens 22:38

The ripple effects go far beyond just performance outcomes.

Dr. Leah OH 22:43

All right, my friends, that wraps up our conversation today. Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose. I'm looking forward to chatting with you again soon on the Communicative Leader.