The Precision Leader: High-Stakes Lessons from NASA to the Boardroom

When your team is overwhelmed, it’s tempting to solve it with more messages, more meetings, and more pressure. We go the other direction: clearer requirements, fewer priorities, and communication that actually holds up under stress. Our guest, John Mollura, spent 15 years inside mission-critical operations supporting NASA and elite military units before moving into executive performance coaching, and he brings that test-ops precision to the messy realities of modern leadership.

We dig into the most common “low precision” habit John sees in executives: giving direction that sounds urgent but doesn’t define what success is. You’ll hear how to set guardrails without micromanaging, how Colin Powell’s 40-70 rule helps you make decisions without waiting for perfect information, and why “up, down, and across” communication prevents the Friday-afternoon blindside. We also tackle perfectionism head-on, replacing the myth of flawless performance with a repeatable excellence mindset built on debriefs, learning, and clear specs.

If your calendar keeps disappearing, we break down intentional time management and the “next right action” approach that helps leaders reclaim focus. We also explore nonverbal leadership communication, including posture, presence, and the subtle signal your phone sends when it’s on the table. Finally, John shares his simple HIT framework for firefighting mode: Halt, Identify what’s important, Take decisive action, plus a curiosity-first mindset that helps teams reorient fast.

If this helped you, subscribe, share it with a teammate, and leave a review so more leaders can communicate with intention and lead with purpose. What’s one message you’ll tighten up this week?

Transcript

Why Precision Communication Matters

Dr. Leah OH 0:00

Welcome to another episode of The Communicative Leader. I'm your host, Dr. Leah O. Leadership, we often deal with fuzzy priorities, those vague goals or shifting deadlines that leave our teams guessing and our schedules just overflowing. But for today's guest, fuzzy wasn't an option. When you're leading test operations for NASA or elite military units, the margin for error is zero. In those environments, the way you communicate determines whether a mission succeeds or fails. Joining us is John Molora. John spent 15 years at the heart of mission critical operations before transitioning into executive performance coaching. He is the founder of Elite Action Academy, and he's helped hundreds of leaders move past the cycles of endless firefighting to find what he calls elite level action. Today we're going to talk about how to filter out the noise, why successful leadership shouldn't require exhaustion, and how to bring a test ops level of precision to the way you lead and speak every day. Let's dive in and have some fun. On The Communicative Leader, we're working to make your work life what you want it to be. So, John, thank you for joining us today on The Communicative Leader. And I know at NASA, communication, of course, is this high precision necessity. And so I'm wondering when you started coaching executives, what was one of the most surprising low precision habits that you noticed and how you know these leaders were giving directives to their teams?

Requirements Without Micromanaging

John Mollura 1:48

And I think the the biggest area for improvement, assuming that's what you mean by low precision, is not giving clear requirements of what's expected. And there's a big difference between giving clear requirements what the ultimate end product is versus telling someone exactly how to do something, which is not what leaders should be doing. But leaders do need to say, this is what we need, this is what's expected, this is when it's expected by. And if something changes on the way, you need to let us know ASAP.

Dr. Leah OH 2:22

Yeah. Yeah. Right. So I really love that. We're giving a few guardrails, but generally saying you're the expert, run with this within, you know, within these parameters. Yeah. And that makes me think I was just talking to a former student who's working, and he's like, My boss is not a micromanager, they're a nano manager. It's even worse, right? So, like you said, we, you know, we want some direction, but not so much so that we are essentially irrelevant.

John Mollura 2:50

Right, right. Because whenever you take away that agency from someone that you're leading, they're not going to, they're not going to develop, they're not going to grow. So part of the job of being a leader is getting okay with that uncomfortable feeling of letting them do it their way and coaching them along the way to make sure they're ending up at the ultimate goal. Because one of my favorite quotes is, you know, if you want to build a doer, rescue them all the time. Bail them out. If you want to build a leader, you know, let them struggle. Let them figure it out. And now it's a fine line between struggle and suffering. We don't want to shift into suffering. That's that's when we do need to step in and offer some mentorship, but then again, send them on their way.

Dr. Leah OH 3:30

Yeah, that I really love that. I haven't heard that and it makes so much sense. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna use that, John.

John Mollura 3:36

Perfect.

Dr. Leah OH 3:37

So let's think now, you know, I love that the work you do. You talk about a lot of times there are these kind of fuzzy or ambiguous goals in that, you know, when we tell our teams, our organizations everything is important, then nothing moves. So I'm wondering from your experience, you know, how can a leader tell when their own communication has become part of that noise rather than kind of the signal and direction their employees need?

John Mollura 4:02

Yeah. And in and you're right. Whenever, whenever things get confused, progress grinds to a halt. And then everybody gets frustrated, and then, you know, down round and around we go and we downward spiral. A leader needs to number one, make sure that they are clear on what they need to do. You know, before they they issue a directive, you know, I I love Colin Powell's 40-70 rule, general Powell. He said, if you have too little information, if you below 40%, that's reckless.

Dr. Leah OH 4:31

Yeah.

John Mollura 4:31

But as a leader, we need to recognize we are never going to have the full picture. So we need to be okay with making a decision based on our experience if we have 70% of information. Because if you if you wait till you get closer to 80, 90, 100, it it's going to take too long. Making sure that that the leader is clear in what they're telling people to do, that's a great first step to make sure that they're not just adding to the noise and the chaos.

Dr. Leah OH 4:53

Yeah, exactly. And I think you're right, because I think there's so many times then questions come back, and rather than feeling frustrated or annoyed, it's recognizing I likely didn't set you up to be as successful as I could have. Absolutely. Yeah. So I like that starting with that clarity

Filter Noise With The 40-70 Rule

Dr. Leah OH 5:10

first. So let's think about subtraction. And I really love this that you do that because I think so much of messaging everywhere is just more, more, do more, and then do it with less. But I love that you see subst subtraction as a strength. You know, I think this is a way where we know that in society, a lot of times we have this world that is rewarding doing more. But how can you coach a leader to find the courage to communicate a shorter, clearer, more focused list of priorities?

John Mollura 5:40

Yeah. And I saw this all the time when I I was working in corporate engineering because I I was a I was a civilian contractor that supported NASA and military. And in the corporate realm, we saw this all the time. It was the the the top down leadership, like this needs to be launched here. And technical team saying there we can't do that.

Dr. Leah OH 6:02

Yep.

John Mollura 6:02

Like like it physically is impossible to do that. The tool is in China and the designs are in Germany. Like there's a timeline here. And they'd say, well, just put something down on paper, knowing full well that that it was going to change. So it's very difficult when you're when you're stuck in that middle. Yeah. One of the very top echelon leaves.

Dr. Leah OH 6:21

The messy middle. Yeah.

John Mollura 6:23

Yeah. So so then it becomes a matter of, okay, how am I going to manage my team through this and communicate to them, like, hey, look, they they have not set us up for success here, gang. But here's what we need to do. We need to do as good of a job as possible. And as things come up, we know they're going to go sideways at some point. We need to proactively communicate that. And a framework that one of my mentors taught me was up, down, and across for communication. Up, down, and across. And what that does is you need to communicate

Up Down And Across Communication

John Mollura 6:55

up to the leadership what's realistic.

Dr. Leah OH 6:57

Yeah.

John Mollura 6:58

And obviously there's all different ways to communicate it in a positive way, but saying, hey, this is this is what's happening. This is this is this this is the status. So they can make informed decisions. That's the up part. Down is making sure the people that are following you are aware of what's going to the appropriate level possible. And then the one that a lot of times gets missed is that across.

Dr. Leah OH 7:19

Yeah, that lateral. Yeah.

John Mollura 7:21

Yeah, because if something, if if something happens and you need to tap in one of your teammates, seem leadership tier, they need to at least have an inkling of what's going on. Otherwise, you know, we've all been blindsided, right?

Dr. Leah OH 7:33

Yes.

John Mollura 7:33

It's usually on like a Friday afternoon.

Dr. Leah OH 7:36

Always. Yeah. It's like the rule.

John Mollura 7:38

On a Friday afternoon when the weather's nice. So if we can adopt that up, down, and across framework continually, that makes things a lot smoother and able to absorb the bumps in the road that are going to come.

Dr. Leah OH 7:51

Yeah. And I really love that because I'm thinking even of the communication research literature, there's a lot focused on upward and a lot on downward. We really miss, I think there's so many assumptions made of that lateral tier, but really what we see is not a lot of communication happening. So I I love that framework. Yeah. So let's move into something I know that many of us have fallen into at times, and it's this perfectionism trap. And particularly for high performers, a lot of type A struggle with perfectionism. So, John, I'm wondering from a performance standpoint, how does that kind of need to feel like you need to be perfect actually stall out a team's momentum and even garble the messaging?

John Mollura 8:35

Yeah, there is no quicker way to grind things to a halt than saying it has to be perfect. And we really need to dissect what perfection is. Perfection by definition is zero mistakes, absolutely flawless. Well, dear listener, I'm sorry to be the one who informed you if you're not aware of this already, but that don't exist.

Dr. Leah OH 8:53

Yes, exactly.

Perfectionism Versus Excellence Standards

Dr. Leah OH 8:55

That's what I tell my kids. I'm like, this is a myth, this is a unicorn. So yeah.

John Mollura 8:59

Yeah. So I do a lot of work with the first responder community. And when I talk about this, some yeah. I say, you know, we need to not focus on perfection. You know, without a doubt, someone always raises their hand. They're like, lives are on the line, we need to strive for perfection. And I say, I agree with you, lives are on the line, but let's talk about reframing this.

Dr. Leah OH 9:16

Yeah.

John Mollura 9:16

Instead of going for perfection, which is no errors, absolutely flawless, which is exhausting, let's instead focus on excellence. Excellence is doing the absolute best to yours and your team's ability, and then having the wherewithal after the fact of saying, what went well? What can we capitalize on? What can we leverage? And also, where are those areas for improvement where we really need to step up? And then how do we take that next right step to do it?

Dr. Leah OH 9:43

Yeah, that is beautiful advice, John. I think too, especially with that high reliability organizations and employees. Of course, I mean, I think that's the natural, like, we need to be perfect, but that excellence. And then embedding the debrief and the reflection. Cause I think that's where a lot of times, you know, things kind of fall off, or we recognize that we forget to recognize how to change processes. So we're not bumping into these same issues. So thank you for that, for that work that you're doing. That's so important. And the other thing I was thinking about in your response is I think so many times perfection is in the eye of the beholder. So you might say, Leah, this is perfect. I've got this message ready. And I might be like, what if we tweak this? Or I I'm not sure. I might interpret this this way. So I think that's an important thing to keep in mind as well, is that it is this moving target, depending on who you're asking.

John Mollura 10:40

Absolutely. And that's something that when I was when I was in test operations and engineering, our job was to make sure that it met the spec. Make sure that the whatever we were doing could end this pressure at this temperature. And it was a very natural tendency for us to come back with the data and be like, all right, it it met it met the spec. And someone would look at it and go, ooh, I don't know. It was supposed to be, you know, 10, and you it only survived to 10.2. And it's very right, right, exactly. And that's, you know, it was, it was, it's, and it's very easy to do. It's like, man, that's close. It's like, no, that you met the spec.

Dr. Leah OH 11:21

Yep.

John Mollura 11:22

You met the spec, and and another just frame of references speaking about like you mentioned about like what level of precision does it have to be? Like what's good enough.

Dr. Leah OH 11:32

Yeah.

John Mollura 11:33

There's all different levels of that. Like if you're doing brain surgery, like that's a much tighter window for air.

Dr. Leah OH 11:40

Yeah.

John Mollura 11:41

Right. But if you're, you know, if you're if you're framing out a house with two by fours, like you have a little bit more wiggle room with that. If it doesn't fit, you whack it with a hammer and get in and the plate.

Dr. Leah OH 11:50

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So I think the, you know, another thing here is the importance of context.

John Mollura 11:56

Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Leah OH 11:57

So let's think about something that is near and dear to so many, so many listeners reclaiming time on their calendars, right? Like the gift of time.

John Mollura 12:06

Yes.

Dr. Leah OH 12:07

So, John, I know in a lot of the leadership coaching you do, you help leaders gain five to ten hours a week. And I'm wondering how much of that kind of stolen time is usually lost to redundant or unclear communication. And then the second part is how can we start protecting our focus in better ways, more effective ways?

John Mollura 12:25

One word, intentionality. How intentional are we being with our time? Because if we're not intentional with our time, like the whole industry of social media and all the notifications on your computers, your phones, your refrigerator for goodness sakes, these days to let you know if it's working just fine, those are all distractions. And if we're not intentional with what we're going to do with our time, it's going to evaporate. Right. So the way I help leaders, quote, get back time, which is a bit of a misnomer because we don't get more time. That's that's the irony. Is I'm like, how are you, where's your time going? And they're like, I don't know. I get to the end of the day and it's done. I'm like, okay, well, let's let's get a handle on that. What are the things that are important? Because everyone always says they're overwhelmed. And I'm like, okay, well, let's let's get down to the next right action and let's figure out what you're doing. What is the next important action? Okay, let's put that on your calendar. Right? Let's carve time out for it and then let's honor that.

Dr. Leah OH 13:26

Yeah.

John Mollura 13:27

And it goes back to setting yourself up for success. For instance, like if someone said, you know, here's I want to get in better shape, right? It's like, don't set aside an hour every day to do burpees and run if you're don't do burpees and run. Like set aside like 10 minutes, go for a walk, walk around the block, set yourself up for success, build that momentum. Because the more you do that, the more you keep promises to yourself, yeah, your confidence actually increases. Because every time you break a promise to yourself, whether it's not flossing your teeth like you told your dentist you were going to do at the last visit, or missing that deadline or not calling the client back when you promised you would, your brain's paying attention. And eventually it's going to get enough information saying we don't do what we say we're going to do. Yeah. So intentionally building back your time and setting yourself up for success is the way to get that time back and then keep it sustainable.

Dr. Leah OH 14:19

Yeah. Yeah. And let's think I love that idea of intentionality because this next question, and this is another thing that I really appreciate you integrate into your coaching, are the nonverbals, that body language. And I know that a lot of the work you do, you talk about posture and presence and how that can help to give words some staying power. So in these high stakes, maybe a test operation, for example, how does that leader's physical presence communicate success even before they verbalized it?

John Mollura 14:50

So a lot of it does have to do with we look put together, so to speak. It's situationally appropriate. So like when we are out in a field doing something, like if if if if I would have rolled up in a three-piece suit and like nice loafers, like

Intentional Time And Next Right Action

John Mollura 15:05

I would have been laughed off the testable.

Dr. Leah OH 15:07

Yep.

John Mollura 15:08

Right? Because there's like mud up to our ankles. So, you know, you you show up and and look professional. That doesn't mean you need to look like a Hollywood movie star, but it needs to look like you put some thought into this. And I have what's that word again? Intentionality. Yes. I showed up. I knew what the weather was going to be. I took the I I if it's cold, I'm not showing up in a t-shirt. So just showing up like that and then just having the posture and you know, uh, you know, if I if I was just standing there like this with my arms crossed the whole time, my chin tucked in, just kind of scowling at everybody.

Dr. Leah OH 15:42

Yeah.

John Mollura 15:42

Like that doesn't seem a very open thing, like, hey, that's the guy I need to have a question. Right. So a lot of that has to do with body language. And it's also, I would always tell my teams, if we had customers on site with leadership coming in that wasn't used to being there, make sure to tell them what the rules are, especially in hazardous situations. So we would we would always try, like I would always be very cognizant if we were around talking, I would try not to have like a closed conversation. If there was like three of us who would try to purposely step back so there would be an open spot so someone could come in. So subtle things like that can make a profound impact.

Dr. Leah OH 16:19

Yeah, profound. I think that's exact. That's the perfect word there. Cause you're right, you know, if you're thinking about that conversation, when it looks like it's just dyadic, and especially if you're a client and you're like, I'm not sure what to do here. We don't want to inadvertently make them feel uncomfortable or unwelcome, right? Because they talk with their their dollars and their business. Yeah. And I think too, one that comes up a lot today is is the phone, right? Having the phone just we could add, you know, add another, another person, another entity to the conversation. But I think so many people overlook what that is communicating to others.

John Mollura 16:55

Absolutely. My w my wife's a high school educator. She's been doing that, God bless her, for over 20 years.

Dr. Leah OH 17:02

Yep.

John Mollura 17:03

So she has seen the pre-cell phone era till till now.

Dr. Leah OH 17:07

Yeah. Yep.

John Mollura 17:08

And they're getting a handle on it in the district she works in. But for so long, like kids would come in and they'd have like headphones like you're wearing on. Yeah. Yeah. Can you please take your headphones off? I can hear you. No, no, no, no. That's rude. I can hear you though. Yep. Please take, yeah, and it and it's and it's absolutely distractions.

Dr. Leah OH 17:28

Yeah. Yeah. It's this interesting thing too, because I find with many of my undergrads, before they have started working, before an internship, they think that having the phone out somewhere makes them look important. I was like, well, let me tell you my perception, right? And and all of our perceptions are different, but let me share with you. So that's been a really interesting, a really interesting thing that I found is that they think it communicates importance and value, where from my perspective, it's actually subtracting that from them, their credibility, their personable, and like how likely they are to have others engage with them.

John Mollura 18:05

Yeah. A lot of the business owners I work with, when we're doing an initial onboarding with, I always say, like, look, how you answer this next question is pretty much going to guarantee how busy you're going to be. Like when you have time between clients, you have a no-show, whatever it is, how are you spending your time? Are you finding the next thing online to get enraged about? Are you looking up cat memes? Or are you doing stuff to move the needle forward on your business during your work? And that's a that's a huge, it goes back to time. It's like when you have those time blocks, have a list of things that you can just automatically jump into. It's like, I got 10 minutes. You know what? I'm gonna knock these calls out. I've been meaning to reply to Darren. I'm gonna do that now.

Dr. Leah OH 18:47

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I love that. The intention. We recognize how that kind of trickles through all of these different aspects of work and communication. And actually, still thinking about intention. So my next question is kind of that feeling like everything is on fire. So if we have this leader who's listening and they feel like they're constantly in this endless firefighting mode, you know, what is

Presence Body Language And Phone Signals

Dr. Leah OH 19:10

a specific question they can ask their team today to start kind of shifting back to being more proactive rather than always feeling like they're reacting.

John Mollura 19:19

Right. So, so a lot of that comes into preparation. Like I said, I do a lot of work with first responders. So like firefighters, by definition, are literally fighting fires.

Dr. Leah OH 19:31

Yep, yep.

John Mollura 19:32

So what they recognize is they're not going to rise to the occasion when it happens. What's going to happen is when the pressure's on, they're going to fall to their level of training. So that's why they train so hard. So when it happens, it's it's it's automatic. So as the leader, we need to recognize where are these areas that we're continually, quote, fighting fires, what's always going sideways on us, and how can we do some preemptive work when we do have a moment to catch our breath? So that's great when you have the time. Yeah. I'd love to give that leader out there that feels like everything's always on fire a very simple framework to remember. And that framework is HIT, H-I-T.

Dr. Leah OH 20:11

Okay.

John Mollura 20:11

So the first thing they need to do when they're like, oh my gosh, everything is on fire and everything is not fine, they need to remember HIT. The H stands for halt.

Dr. Leah OH 20:20

Okay.

John Mollura 20:21

I know it seems weird, but when you feel like you got a lot to do, but sometimes you have to halt. You need to just stop.

Dr. Leah OH 20:26

Yeah. Yep.

John Mollura 20:27

Literally take a breath, calm your nervous system down, some deep breathing, and then be like, all right, what is important? That's the I and hit. You know, what what is immediately important? Because when everything feels important, like you said at the beginning of our conversation, nothing's going to get done. So, and they might not know. They might need to ask some questions. They might need to pull in the stakeholders either above or you know, their subordinates that are in the weeds or other team, other leaders of the same tier, and be like, what is important right now? I have about 50 competing things. I think this is the linchpin. Do we all agree on that?

Dr. Leah OH 21:03

Yep.

John Mollura 21:03

Or maybe the leader is in the position where they can make that decision, be like, this is the linchpin, this is the next right action, and this is like click, click, click, click, move these other things.

Dr. Leah OH 21:12

Yeah.

John Mollura 21:12

So you gotta halt, you gotta see what's immediately important. And then the key is take decisive action. You know, because all this stuff does nothing good unless you take action. Yeah. Scared and wondering, like, I don't know if this is the right decision, then that's okay.

Dr. Leah OH 21:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so important. Yeah. So I imagine you hear from a lot of folks you work with. And when I used to work in corporate, I would laugh. So I'm like, what a, you know, we have 73 priorities this week. Cool. Right. Like it's just like goes against the word priority. But I love that, I love those frameworks because you're right. When uh you're feeling like that, if you train yourself to touch base with hit, then you will continually strengthen that muscle and much better at navigating those those moments.

John Mollura 22:00

Absolutely. Absolutely. And like anything, it's a muscle that gets exercised.

Dr. Leah OH 22:04

Yeah, exactly. And so actually thinking about navigating, I know that you do work with the Navigators Masterclass. And for our listeners who feel like they've lost their true north because they're so overwhelmed, how can they use their voice to reorient to their team quickly?

John Mollura 22:21

Yeah, I I love that that you brought up the navigators, and that is the free masterclass that's available for everybody at jumalure.com slash free stuff. And it's about 30 minutes. And what it does is it helps you ask the questions to get out of those mindsets of maybe you're drifting, you know, where you're on autopilot, but you kind of you know what's going on around, you know, you you're curious about what's going on, but you're on autopilot. Teaches a question to stop drifting, or maybe if you're being judgmental and on autopilot, that's what I call the blamer.

Dr. Leah OH 22:50

Yeah.

John Mollura 22:50

That's the person who life is happening to me. Woe is me. Nothing's, I can't control anything.

HIT Framework For Firefighting Mode

John Mollura 22:55

And then there's also a question to help people get out of the third navigator, which is the critic. That's that judgmental and aware part of us. And the goal is to get us curious and aware, which I call the seeker. So there's three questions in the master class. There's a quick PDF download, and they can reference it, the three questions asked to get them out of the blamer mentality, drifter mentality, and also the critic mentality to get into that seeker, curious and aware mindset.

Dr. Leah OH 23:24

Yeah. And I love that. And a lot of times, like you said, sometimes we might recognize, oh, I've been going this way for a while, but that's a nice way to check in whether it's quarterly or maybe once, once a year, twice a year, just to, you know, am I still on this path? Am I headed in the direction I'm intending to go?

John Mollura 23:43

Absolutely. Yeah, having that north star because you you don't need to know all the steps, but you need to know that north star is you can take that next right step.

Dr. Leah OH 23:51

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I think too, I love your language with that next right step because I think so often when we're thinking about feeling overwhelmed, the process is for me in particular. If you think about writing research papers, academic papers, or a book, it can be like, I know what this final product needs to look like. There are a million little steps between now and then, but it's that next right step, you know, over and over and over that finally gets you to that finished product.

John Mollura 24:20

Absolutely. Absolutely. And we need to make peace with the fact, going back to that perfectionistic mindset that the rough draft is never intended to be the final copy. So give yourself grace and go again and iterate and make those corrections with what you've learned.

Dr. Leah OH 24:36

Yep, exactly. So, John, I have two final questions for you. And this is the way we end all episodes of the communicative leader, and they're intertwined. And the first part is thinking about that advice for our titled leaders, our managers, our directors. You know, maybe it is a tip or a challenge. And then the second part is that advice for all employees across industries and across all ranks. What do you want to leave them with or challenge them with?

John Mollura 25:04

Wow.

Dr. Leah OH 25:05

Yeah, yeah. No pressure.

John Mollura 25:07

No pressure, no pressure. What I what I really encourage everyone to lean into, whether whether they're, you know, high-ranking leaders or or you know, everybody, you know, turn turning the gears out there, is really work on shifting into a posture of curiosity. Whether it's if something's unclear at work, being the one that raises your hand and be like, hey, can you can you please clarify that? In our relationships, if someone says something, we watch them say or do something, get clarity on it, especially if it seems out of step with what how they normally act, because it's so easy to judge everybody else by their actions, but we judge ourselves by intention, right? Yep, exactly. How many times have we said, whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm sorry, that is not what I thought. So so whether it's it's high-level leadership or the folks that are that are making things happen, adopt that posture of curiosity and pre-judgment and in a curious

Navigators Questions And Curiosity Mindset

John Mollura 26:05

mindset.

Dr. Leah OH 26:05

Yeah, yeah. That that's so helpful. And I think too, when you were talking of syncing, that removes us from that critic, critical standpoint, from the blaming standpoint. And I think too, even with ourselves, right? Because I think especially those who are type A and display perfectionistic tendencies can very quick quickly become their own worst critic.

John Mollura 26:27

For sure.

Dr. Leah OH 26:28

Right. And so I think that curiosity in all capacities is going to serve people well.

John Mollura 26:35

Yes, ma'am.

Dr. Leah OH 26:36

Yeah. Well, excellent. Well, John, thank you for sharing your time with us, these helpful frameworks are helping us to think about how to, again, be more intentional so that we're more likely to communicate clearly, maintain these and strengthen these relationships. It's really helpful advice.

John Mollura 26:54

Yeah, thank you so much for sharing your audience with me.

Dr. Leah OH 26:57

Excellent. All right, my friends. That wraps up our conversation today. Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose. I'm looking forward to chatting with you again soon on the Communicative Leader.