The Negotiation Mindset: Why Every Interaction is a Deal in Motion with Derrick Chevalier

Most of us think negotiation starts when the stakes are high and the numbers hit the table. We see it very differently. Negotiation is baked into leadership communication: asking for headcount, defending a plan, setting boundaries, earning buy-in, and navigating conflict without losing momentum. That’s why we sat down with Derrick Chevalier, an Amazon number one best-selling author, certified mediator, and negotiation trainer known for helping leaders turn objections into opportunities.

We dig into power vs influence and why those two paths can create the same outcomes through completely different mechanisms. Derrek challenges old-school negotiation tactics that sound smart on paper but can leave you negotiating against yourself, including the way many people define “win-win.” Instead, we focus on what top performers do differently: they measure success by the new information they uncover and the better options that become possible because of it.

You’ll also learn Derrek’s “objection flip” for handling a hard no without getting rattled, plus IWA questions (if, what, where, when, who, how) to find what you don’t know when pressure is high. We close with practical guidance on presence, matching demeanor to the room, de-escalating tension, and clearing conflict fast so teams can move with speed and clarity.

If you want stronger negotiation skills, better conflict resolution, and a simpler way to lead conversations toward results, listen now. Subscribe, share this with a leader who gets too many objections, and leave a review with the biggest negotiation challenge you want us to tackle next.

Transcript

Opening And Why Negotiation Is Everywhere

Dr. Leah OH 0:00

Welcome to another episode of the Communicative Leader. I'm your host, Dr. Leah. We often think of negotiation as something that happens in a boardroom or over a legal contract. We think of it as a high stakes event. But what if we shifted that perspective? What if we acknowledge that every time you ask for a budget increase, you advocate for a team member, or even try to align your family on weekend plans that you're actually negotiating? When we fail to see these moments for what they are, we leave influence and results on the table. Joining us today is a man recently named the best negotiation trainer in the U.S. for 2026. Derek Shivaya is an Amazon number one best-selling author, a certified mediator, and the architect of the comprehensive negotiating strategies universal framework. He has worked with thousands of professionals to turn no into not yet and objections into opportunities. In today's episode, we're diving into why the traditional win-win model might be holding you back, how to master the objection flip, and how to use behavioral science to drive profit and progress directly to your bottom line. Let's dive in and have some fun. Hello and welcome to the Communicative Leader, hosted by me, Dr. Leah O'Millian Hodges. My friends call me Dr. O. I'm a professor of communication and a leadership communication expert. On The Communicative Leader, we're working to make your work life what you want it to be. Derek, thank you for joining us today on The Communicative Leader. I'm so excited for our conversation. And one thing I was thinking when preparing for this, I love that you say that virtually every human interaction involves negotiation. And I could not agree more.

Power Vs Influence In Daily Leadership

Derrick Chevalier 1:58

Such a great question, and thank you. I'm happy to be with you too. Well, two things. You ask about power and influence in terms of the way it works. Well, power and influence have the same objective results. So power is really the apparatus that we choose to use, brute force or persuasion, or or we can use position, right? Or influence. And many people don't understand that the definition of influence is the ability to have an impact on a person, place, or thing without the other party being aware of it. So that's the true, that's the thing that almost everyone misses about influence because they use influence and persuasion as synonyms. So the leader who is using brute force is use is obviously missing everybody who doesn't respond to that, right? So the leader who understands that beyond sales, right, which is the transactional part, is only the tip of the iceberg in negotiation.

Dr. Leah OH 3:08

Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. And that's something I really love. I I teach a persuasion and social influence undergrad course, and I kind of put on the students, I'm like, try and give me a profession that doesn't use this. And at first there are all these hands, and then they're like, oh, yep. Yeah. Because you're right, it's it's there, whether we're aware of it or not.

Derrick Chevalier 3:29

Yes. And here's the other thing, because we you have asked a couple of other questions about this, but but the other thing is like we we we are either negotiating and selling or we're being sold.

Dr. Leah OH 3:43

Yep.

Derrick Chevalier 3:44

So the difference is where the what where the destination destination is, after all, and how we get there. So there's a lot that can be missed if we're not realizing that we're either having an impact or someone's having an impact on on us. We're not required, right? Like life is gonna go on and things are results and consequences are going to happen regardless of what we do.

Dr. Leah OH 4:10

Exactly. Yeah. And

Old-School Tactics And Experience Trap

Dr. Leah OH 4:12

Derek, now I want to ask you a little bit about your book. And I love this provocative title, Evolve or Be Slaughtered. Love it. It's stuck with me. And so I'm wondering, you know, in 2026, this fast-paced business climate, what have you seen? What are the biggest risks for these leaders who rely on old school, you know, traditional 20th century negotiation tactics?

Derrick Chevalier 4:35

Right. So I want to say that I think those tactics are important to understand and to know about because a lot of where we are in the evolved era, in the snuff era, is really built on the shoulders of that, right? So we that old school stuff is there, but we can't rely on it. And that's the operative word that you're asking. But the the answer to your question, in my view, would be that the consequences are vulnerability and extinction, right? Because we if we're relying on old school tactics or we're relying on our experience, we just did a poll that included over a million people and we got 30 or 40,000 impressions about by asking, yeah, can you can you achieve great negotiation skill and expertise through experience only? Well, about 56% of people said across many different sectors said, yeah, you can. You can achieve high level of skill in negotiation through and expertise through experience. Well, that's a misnomer, right? Because your experience is limited by by that, but you're limited by your experience because you don't know what you don't know, right? Exactly. But you s and but you can create skill through experience. What you cannot create is expertise, because expertise is the ability to compare and contrast elements from the same sort of sector, like a saumolier, right? Like taking compares and contrasts red wine, white wine, whatever it is. So if you only have experience, what are you comparing it to? So you're extremely vulnerable. And if you only have old school knowledge, then you wouldn't even recognize, you know, Henry Ford would certainly look at a Ferrari and go, that's a pretty, you know, big advancement on what I had in mind. But he would certainly, but he would have no clue how to operate it or how to build it or the computers, the technology wasn't in building. So it's the same thing. You're either going to be vulnerable to somebody who has more insight and skill and knowledge, and eventually you'll be taken out, just as, you know, Ford is no longer the number one and only motor car company in the world, right?

Dr. Leah OH 7:05

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm thinking too in your response, Derek, I'm thinking about, you know, how people used to have these long tenures at organizations, and some do, but that's really not as routine anymore. And so someone who's been in one context, the same group or same industry for a long time, like you're saying, those skills might work really well in industry A.

Derrick Chevalier 7:28

Right.

Dr. Leah OH 7:29

But when that slows down, we want to be able to go to B, C, D, you know, onward and upward.

Derrick Chevalier 7:35

Exactly. And you know, there's a great example of this. For if you take, I would ask you this question. What is the most prolific negotiation framework in the world, temporary framework in the world, would you say? Would it be what comes to mind for you? The most prolific negotiating framework? What do you think?

Dr. Leah OH 7:56

Oh gosh, I'm not even sure. I mean, I think about principles of influence. That's what comes to mind because I'm more familiar with that than a negotiating framework. I think of Robert Cialdini's work, but what do you what are you drawing from?

Derrick Chevalier 8:10

Well, I would say I would say that that it you can quantitatively prove that since 1970, the most prolific person in contemporary negotiation is Dr. Chester Karas. Because the first contemporary book that he wrote, the negotiating game, almost everything you're seeing in negotiation since then has been a known or unknown borrowing, if not a rip-off, of what he's doing, of what he had to say. And it's so prolific that now when I saw somebody on an Instagram who was doing a masterclass that was literally taken from the Kerist workbook, and I contacted him and I said, I said, I have a problem with somebody just ripping somebody else's. And they went and they looked at it and they said, the principles that he's using are part of the public domain. And his work, and yet to this day, they are the largest seminar, uh, a seminar factory on planet Earth.

Dr. Leah OH 9:14

Okay. Yeah.

Derrick Chevalier 9:15

The largest. And so they're they're the largest, and they're they're still actual, but they're still teaching a lot of things that that that he were in the negotiating. Now, how has the world changed between 1970 and 1920 or 2026?

Dr. Leah OH 9:32

Yeah.

Derrick Chevalier 9:33

And so does some of it still work? Yeah, some of it still works, but a lot of it, I mean, just by virtue of its life cycle, and yet people are paying a lot of money and going to this, and they don't know, right? But also, if if they're doing transactional work, they're gonna be more successful. But if you're doing beyond that, you're gonna have a problem. Yeah.

Dr. Leah OH 9:56

Yeah.

The Objection Flip That Neutralizes No

Dr. Leah OH 9:57

And and let's think about that, the beyond. So, my next question, this is something that you talk about that I love, is the objection flip. And this really resonated with me because a lot of times I'll have students or colleagues say, gosh, they just shot down my idea. So you have this great idea, but someone immediately raises a concern, and then that objection either completely stalls it or throws in that monkey wrench. So I'm wondering, Derek, you know, what is the objection flip and how can we use it to keep a conversation moving without it getting really defensive?

Derrick Chevalier 10:28

Well, that's harder because we don't have control over whether or not somebody gets defensive. What we what we do have control over is how we handle it, right? When they do. Yeah. But you asked such a great question. So the object objection flip, and here you go. So the antidote to any objection, tactic or technique is the objection, the tactic or the technique, or its opposite. That's a big one, isn't it? So that's a proprietary, evolved, or snuffed area. Because think about this, and it's an interesting story where that came from. So the antidote to any objection, what does that mean? That means that I give show you my idea, and you say that's nonsense. Well, the simple, what is the simplest response to that? If I again, so the antidote to any challenge, right? Yeah. Or objection, tactic or technique is the tactic or technique. So you say no, what's the antidote to that? What is it? What's what is it? If I say no, what would you say? What go ahead? What's it? No. What's the antidote?

Dr. Leah OH 11:42

Okay, Derek. What do you recommend?

Derrick Chevalier 11:44

No, no, no, no, what? The antidote to any objection, tactic or technique, is the tactic or technique. The tactic I'm the objection I say is is no. So I say to you, you give me your idea and I say no. What's your response? No. What's your respect? And where are we? I just neutrally just neutralized your objection using the exact same.

Dr. Leah OH 12:12

I love that. Yeah.

Derrick Chevalier 12:13

Now, where does it work and why does it work? This is the interesting quick story. Yeah. When I was in college, I hung out with these guys that were herpetologists, and we'd go out finding these poisonous steaks, and believe me, I'm no hero. These guys were real herpetologists. I was kind of like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But while we were out there, it occurred to me one day, I asked the question you just asked. I said, I wonder if there's any kind of how do you deal with any tactic or objection? And I read all the books. It was nowhere. Yeah. It's in nowhere else will you find this except in snuff. And then one day I thought about, I said, well, why were we collecting these snakes? Well, some of those snakes were pets because these guys were crazy. But some of the snakes were used to create antidote. So when a person is bit by a rental snake, where do they get the antidote from? From the poison of the snake that bit you. And bang, it hit me. And I go, so it works in nature and it works in negotiation. Now, or it's opposite. Now watch this. So I say no. What's the opposite? Go ahead. I say no. The opposite would be yes. How about that? What did I just do? No. So you give me your idea and I say no. And what would you say? You get yes.

Dr. Leah OH 13:36

And I would say no. Oh, yes. Oh, you can.

Derrick Chevalier 13:38

So it is the same or it's opposite. Oh, okay. So either way, either because when anecdote doesn't take the poison out of your system, it neutralizes the impact of the poison on your system. So the first step is for me to neutralize, whereas I take your rejection of my idea to heart, and I go, oh, well, oh gee. And there's all kinds of ways to come. But wait a minute. My my first objection is to stop the bleeding, is to stop the poison from entering my system. So you tell me no, and I go, no. Now, first of all, you're going to catch the other person completely off guard because they don't know what they're going to do, what what are you talking about? And we can go from there, right? Or you say no, and I say, well, yeah. You go, well, no. Yeah. Well, where are we? We're in the exact same place where we started. Exactly. And then we can shift. So that's a I love them to talk about that one. Right.

Dr. Leah OH 14:42

Yeah. Yeah. I love where it stems from that idea of going out with your friends who are getting the snakes. And I was thinking, my kids are very good at this because they will always meet a no with the no. Yes. But also I love how it disrupts. You're right. It is a perfect disrupting strategy. Exactly.

Derrick Chevalier 15:00

And then what you and then you can recalibrate that. But it stops you from being knocked off your center because someone rose an objection, because an objection was raised. So so, you know, in the Evolved book talks about this and why it works in the psychology and all that of but it's also technical that it of course it works, because what is the antidote to know? No, no, yes, yes. Or I can go the opposite. So let's say you scream and say, well, hell no. Now I could come back and say, well, hell no. Or I could even say you could go, well, hell no. And then I could go, now where are you? Because you screamed at me, and rather than coming back at you, I went the exam. And maybe I said to you, well, you're incorrect. In the most low-key, and now you're either going to escalate, and the more you escalate, the easier it is to take the wind out of your sails. Because the opposite, you escalate and I let you go. Eventually you run out of air, and now you feel like an idiot because you're yelling and screaming. Exactly. And I haven't moved my position. So I'm maintain the power. So the first thing is to neutralize and then take the power and recalibrate. That's it.

Dr. Leah OH 16:21

Yeah. Yep. Brilliant. And I love what that does exactly, like you said, power and also for uh potentially changing counterproductive um norms in a group. If we have a leader that's always shooting things down or a hard no, this is a way to continue a conversation, to stop. It is.

Derrick Chevalier 16:39

And there are some other things in Evolve about dealing with that. But you've got some other questions there too. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Leah OH 16:45

Exactly.

Why Win-Win Can Be Lose-Lose

Dr. Leah OH 16:46

So you just mentioned psychology. And I know that you often you incorporate psychology, behavioral science into your framework. And I'm wondering what is one hidden psychological trigger, trigger that often causes negotiation to stall out, even before we get to the to the logistics, to the numbers.

Derrick Chevalier 17:04

Yes. Well, I believe that a lot of that comes from classic and old school negotiation training. So the first thing is that people focus on the they focus on the deal and what they want rather than and rather than focusing on the people. And that'll come up again here. So the thing is they focus on on what they know rather than on finding out what they don't know. And that is the one of the biggest differences between the evolved and between classic, Keras, Harvard, and everybody else. So all of them are gonna tell you something like, aim high. So I go into a negotiation and I aim high. Our question is aim high according to who. So, or I can go and I can say, well, I go in and say, Well, I'm gonna go on my Batna. So who came up with the Batna? You did. Or I could say, Well, you know, don't split the difference as Dr. Karas did in 1970, or I could up that ante and say, Well, never split the difference as Chris Voss did in 2016. People think he and he, yeah, never don't. Okay. Yeah. But I could say any of those things. But who came up with if you say don't, if I taught you don't and never, then I've taught you to fail in any instance where don't or never are the only thing that are gonna get a deal with me. Yeah. Now, right? So now if I tell if I you go into a negotiation and you say, well, I'm gonna aim high or I'm gonna come up with my Batna, then quantitatively speaking, you're negotiating against yourself. Yeah. Yeah. The evolved negotiator, I'm not interested. I know what I want or what I think or what I I know what I want, right? I know, or I know what I think I want based upon what what what I want. So I'm not gonna, if I'm going to a negotiation, if my objective is to negotiate against myself, then follow classic strategy. Great. And then you walk away. Oh, that was fun. Well, no, okay.

Dr. Leah OH 19:10

Yeah.

Derrick Chevalier 19:11

I'm gonna teach you to go into a room and big difference here is this. If we go into a negotiation, you have what you want, I have what I want. Neither of us get exactly what we want, but we get close. 99% of your listeners will walk away and call that a win-win. You're gonna say, well, I wanted X, but I didn't get that, but I almost got it. And you didn't wanted Y, and you didn't get it, but you almost got it. So that was, well, it's kind of a win-win. No, it's not. It's actually a lose-lose. The reason it feels so good so often is that I say, well, because somebody probably got screwed. But it's a family show. So I'm saying from that perspective, is you have no clue whether or not you had a good deal because all you're measuring your your outcome is is against a target you set. Yeah. You set that target. So you go, I didn't get my target, but I almost got it, and that's okay. Yeah, but what was the other person's how far did you stretch that other person? Well, you don't have a clue. Yeah. So in the evolve approach, we're gonna go in and base the negotiation and its outcome on how much the of the outcome is based on information or data we didn't know when we went in. Because when we get that new data and new insight, it's going to impact what we thought we knew and what we thought we wanted. And now we're going to be looking for a deal that didn't exist when we walked into the room, right? So that's the key, is to focus on finding out what you do not know and moving beyond the idea of negotiating against yourself.

Dr. Leah OH 21:03

Yeah. It is so, so insightful, Derek. And I love, you know, right at the beginning, you talked about how we we focus on what we know. And that makes sense because it's it's comfortable, it's a clear, unambiguous target. And I'm wondering what are some of the things that you teach?

IWA Questions To Find Unknowns

Dr. Leah OH 21:18

Like how do we start to unravel or uncover what we don't know?

Derrick Chevalier 21:21

Wow, that's such great. And the whole section in the book in the competitive uh negotiation area of the book, there are seven competitive rules in that. So I'll share the first one with you. So you ask, well, how do I find out what I don't know? Okay, I'll tell you. Watch this. Ask Iowa questions. Now, your response is, Well, what is that? And your your listeners are going, what is that? Now, watch this real quick. Doctor, what is an open ended question?

Dr. Leah OH 21:51

One that requires more than a yes or no response.

Derrick Chevalier 21:54

Okay. So everybody in your audience will answer something close to that. Now think about that. Everybody in the world teaches that concept. So now your listener is in a negotiation, and you said, Well, how do I uncover what I don't know? Well, the real simple answer is ask an open-ended question.

Dr. Leah OH 22:13

Oh clear.

Derrick Chevalier 22:13

So, okay, but wait a minute. Now we're in a negotiation, and now we remember it's like, oh, I need to find out what I don't know. So I need to ask an open-ended question. This is what's happening in your brain. So now your brain goes, Well, what is an open-ended question? Well, the answer is an open-ended question is a question that is is not a yes or no question. Meanwhile, you're in a negotiation. While that's happening, look what's happening to your brain. So one of the evolved techniques that we came up with, right, is ask IWA questions. IWA is an acronym for capital I feel. It's phonetic. Okay. IWA. IWA. All right? So now what does that mean? It means ask, if, what, where, when, who, and how. Now, now you're in a negotiation and your brain goes, well, how do I find out what I don't know? Great. Ask, choose one. Now, instead of having your brain rattle around about the the the open indie question that I did. Nope, all you're gonna remember is ask. That bald guy said, I want questions. What does that mean? I don't care if, what, where, when, how, who. That's what you ask. So that starts. And so that's a perfect example of where the evolved system or stuffed system really says, we didn't reinvent that, but I can teach somebody how to execute an open-ended question in five minutes, whereas for the last 200 years, people have been teaching people, well, it's a question that doesn't answer that my that doesn't help me when I'm in a battleground. It's a question. And and yet, even under stress, and people go, well, which one should it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Who, what if, you'll figure it out when and you go from there. So that's a perfect example of an evolved approach that works right now. Your people can come off this podcast right now, today, and use that. And that's a tidbit of what's in those roles, because there's a whole six others, but that's a great one to start with.

Dr. Leah OH 24:30

Yeah, that's so insightful too, because I think we we go back to that idea of disrupting the expected exchange, which is really powerful when you're the one disrupting. And to when we stray from what is predicted. And I mean, again, this is a this isn't a very respectful way to do it, but those we're we're negotiating with, they're on their heels, right? Right. Yes. Trying to figure out what can I share, what can I not share. Yeah. And so thinking about keeping our power. Exactly. Now watch this.

Derrick Chevalier 25:04

Say, oh, by the way, when were you born?

Dr. Leah OH 25:06

Yeah. Wow, that's asking you.

Derrick Chevalier 25:08

By the way, when when when were you born?

Dr. Leah OH 25:10

Me? In the 80s. Yeah.

Derrick Chevalier 25:12

In what? In the 80s. Guess what? Thank you. Because what we just did was a demonstration. Talk about disruptive, right? I'm listening, and then you say disruptive, and then I use an Iowa question. And what happened to you? Like, uh What?

Dr. Leah OH 25:27

Yeah. What was that?

Derrick Chevalier 25:28

Now where are we going, Derek? Now, now, what watch watch this one. What did I just learn by asking you that disruptive question? Well, I asked you a question. Now, guess what? I don't know what the answer is, but do I know with a hundred percent certainty that you know what the answer is? Yes. Now, guess what? So I know that whenever Dr. Leah does not want to answer a question, she A repeats the question, B, her eyes go up to the top of her head and look off to her left, which tells me what part of your brain you are accessing. Now, what did I just learn? Every time I ask you a question that you don't want to answer, you will repeat that same psychological and behavioral pattern. So without even telling me the answer to the question, I have insight about your behavioral construct. In other words, I can tell whenever you're lying to me without you even having a clue that it's just happened.

Dr. Leah OH 26:29

Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Derrick Chevalier 26:31

That's how that works.

Dr. Leah OH 26:32

Yes, exactly. So let's move on. And this is

Converting Vision Into Action Through People

Dr. Leah OH 26:36

something, this next question, this is something that I think so many people struggle with. It's this when you have this great idea, you have a vision that you want to enact, but then figuring out how do we actually convert this idea or vision into action. And so, Derek, your your framework, it helps a leader close that gap between the vision and getting literal buy-in, whether it's emotional or other resources like financial. So, how do we get that? How do we how do we navigate that with our strategies?

Derrick Chevalier 27:04

Yeah, that's a great question, but it also is, in my view, an oxymoron, right? Because when we're talking about the conversion gap of a leader who struggles to convert. Now, in the in the snuff framework, leadership is in part defined as the ability to achieve specific goals and objectives through the actions of others. So if you are not converting your idea through the actions of others, you're kind of not a what. You could be a dictator, but a lead and dictator is a form of leadership, but it's not leadership in the way that we're talking about. So that's the first thing. So the first thing that we need to understand is that our being the evidence of our leadership is our ability to convert those ideas into results. That's how we prove who we are, right? Because I had an idea I which is going to drive an outcome, and that's kind of my bailiwick, right, as a leader. Yeah. And now, in order to get it done, I need these steps taken, and I and I can't do it myself, or if I am doing it myself, I'm not leading, right? Because that is what I'm capable of doing through the actions of others. So, in part, what I have to do is that my objection, my objective is to negotiate people and not the problems.

Dr. Leah OH 28:31

Yeah.

Derrick Chevalier 28:32

You negotiate people and not the problems, right? Yeah. So or or the challenges that get in my way, right? So when I'm talking about how do I convert, well, I it depends on who's in the room. And and one of the things about the SNUF framework is that it's going to inform you of how to take into consideration all of the background and idiosyncrasies of the people that you need to convert because you actually need a separate strategy for each one of them. There isn't a blanket strategy. That's the nutshell. And so if you're trying to apply a blanket that's going to resolve the objections of an entire board or a team, well, you failed already unless it they're all the same person, right? So we need strategies that are tailored for the individuals we're interacting with.

Dr. Leah OH 29:24

Yeah. Yeah. And I was when you were responding, I was thinking about how you know you're talking about negotiating people, not the problems. But a lot of times when we're not good with the people, we create more problems. Exactly.

Derrick Chevalier 29:37

Yeah. So if we're not good with the people, that's self-awareness. That's not a problem. There's a lot of brilliant people who aren't good with other people. But as a leader, then you know that I'm not good with people, so I find somebody who is to kind of to fulfill that role. I communicate with them. This is what Howard Hughes and a lot of genius people do. They find a mouthpiece who can be that buffer, right? Somebody who can communicate with them and yet take the message to the troops. So again, it is understand. And even if you're if you're in an organization with a leader and you talk and there's an imbalance in power. In other words, the leader you recognize that doesn't have that capability, but you don't feel like you have the ability to tell them that there is a way to tell them that. It's called a negotiation with an evolved approach. Yes.

Dr. Leah OH 30:29

Yeah. Exactly. And

Negotiating Value Boundaries And Demeanor

Dr. Leah OH 30:32

so you just mentioned presence, and that's something we talk a lot about in this show. And so I'm wondering how does a leader negotiate their own value and boundaries without getting that term difficult from either their peers, their subordinates, or from a board?

Derrick Chevalier 30:47

Right. Well, I love that question. So I would say that in part it is another bit of an acronym here. Put people over titles, put purpose over people, put desired outcome over any challenge or outcome to reach success. So the my value, value starts with my ability to put people over their titles, because there's plenty of people with titles where there's a mismatch, right? So people over title, but purpose over people. Because if the purpose, my purpose is not greater than the individuals that I'm leading or that I'm interacting with, then probably I should be doing something else because the whole reason the organization, the job, title exist is to achieve the purpose, not to hire people. It's to achieve the purpose. So people over title, purpose over people, desired outcome over any challenge or obstacle. And everything else we're talking about are the tools to get that done. So you ask, well, how do I do that? And watch this one. The first answer to almost any of these questions, well, how do I do that? You know what the answer to that question is? Ask Iowa questions. Yep. Yep. Right. Well, how do I do that? Well, ask Iowa. I might come back and say, who are you working with? And then we would begin to break down that question and identify and get to the action steps that are going to lead us in the direction to the to the solution that we're looking for. But you gotta first recognize it and then execute and and then come up with a plan and and go forward.

Dr. Leah OH 32:33

Yeah, and I think you're right. That's a really great way where you're fact-gathering, but not seen as adversarial, right? Not seen as, you know, you're just sitting there trying to understand so you have the information. Right.

Derrick Chevalier 32:49

So now here's the other thing that you just bring up, very point, and that is this one. It's important to understand the difference between intent, right? So, so demeanor and intent. So what you just described when I said, Well, I'm just sitting there, that's describing my demeanor. I'm low-key, I'm laid back, my body language is relaxed, I'm not in your face, my voice is not elevated, I may even come down in the volume of my voice, I may speak more quietly, that kind of that's demeanor. Intent can't be seen. So intent is implied. Now, if I was screaming or if I'm elevated, you might be backed off, and I've frightened you with my demeanor. But I may have a demeanor that's aggressive, but my intent is not. Well, it doesn't matter because I lost you. So we need to know the difference between demeanor and every individual we're talking about is going to require a demeanor that matches them rather than the demeanor that right? So our demeanor is the vehicle that we use to deliver our message, our intent.

Dr. Leah OH 34:05

Yeah, yeah. And that's so important. And I think, you know, piggybacking and and extending that idea of demeanor. So when we're in a meeting and it turns there's high tension, maybe even adversarial, right? What is a specific tactic a leader can use to de-escalate the room and regain control of the narrative?

Derrick Chevalier 34:24

I love that.

De-Escalation With Attention To Result Framework

Derrick Chevalier 34:25

So if we go old school, like let's go old school, a lot of your listeners, maybe they were not, but do you remember the film Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross by any chance? There was a is a this was a film, it was a small film, but but anyway, in that film, there Alec Baldwin plays and he comes up with that. He's dealing with a sales group and he comes out with it and he goes, attention, interest, decision, action. So if things escalate and get out of well, I have to get your attention, right? So I might say, my I might say everyone in the room is fired.

Dr. Leah OH 35:02

Yep. What are you supposed to be doing?

Derrick Chevalier 35:04

Like what do I have your attention? Are you interested in finding out why you're fired? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, now what so the old school was AIDA, attention, interest, decision, action. Now I said it was born out of sales. And and and this was old school 60s, 70s. So it doesn't work across the board. Almost everything in Evolve is look, we look for it to be universal, right? So we elevated that because it so that it works across the board. Now watch this. Because I suddenly discovered you can get someone's attention, you can create interest, they can make a decision, and and then you get go into action. But if you get their interest and then they make a decision and take an action that are different than you want them to take, then you achieve AIDA, but you fail, right? So we elevated it and we found the missing ingredient. Here's the missing ingredient: attention. Do I have your attention? Interested. Are you interested? Influence. So now I use the tool of influencing your interest so that you make a decision that is consistent with the direction I need you to go. Now you made that decision. Now you take an action that is consistent with the decision that I need you to go. And then I measure the result. So the evolved for the 21st century will work online, on Zoom, attention, interest, influence, right? Decision, action, result. Now, how do I know that I achieved my objective? Because the result will be the ultimate reason that I got your attention in the first place. That's how I would because if the because if the outcome at the end of the day, if the result doesn't match the reason that I got your attention, then I failed. And so I go back at each of those steps and I can tell you where I failed. I got your attention, everybody was quiet. You were interested because you're looking right at me. Then I influenced you. Well, maybe I lost you at that one. So I didn't and I didn't get it. So now I went on to decision and action. So I go back and I realize, well, wait a second, I had their attention, they were interested, but then I did not influence them properly to make the right decision because they made the wrong decision. So I go back and I recalibrate influence. So it's a very many of the things that I love about Evolve is almost very much of it is quantitative. You can argue about it, but you can't argue. Two plus two is four. If I got your attention to achieve a result, then how do I know I succeeded? The result matches the reason that I got. Like two plus two. Yeah. Exactly. That's a good thing. I love that tactic. I love that strategy. Yeah. Then we talk about that again more fully in the book as well.

Dr. Leah OH 38:08

Mm-hmm. Is that oh gosh, did I lose that they thought? Oh, no, no. Okay. So singing the old school model you're talking about, where it might on paper look like I am successful because you arrived at uh influenced or arrived at this decision. Doesn't mean it was the one I as the leader wanted. But it's thinking about how the hits to my credibility as that titled leader then, then that people can see me circling back trying to figure this out again.

Derrick Chevalier 38:35

Right, right. So you've got some leeway, but not endless. Right. Well, here's the thing most people are not thinking about the idea of connecting from a quantitative standpoint. Like, so if I come back and I say, I can do what you said, I can get their attention, they could be interested, they made a decision. But was that why you were doing it? No. No. If all this person did, you can say, Yes, I successfully got Dr. Leah to make a decision. But then she took an action that was completely different from what then I failed. Then I was either not persuasive or I was not influential because the credibility that I have as a negotiator, as a leader, is built upon the results that are achieved are achieved at the end of the disdain. Because if I don't achieve the result, then nothing else that I did really matters. And not that it is, it may have some residual value, but ultimately if I didn't achieve the result, then I failed. You know, I may not be a failure, but I failed in that objective, right?

Dr. Leah OH 39:42

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So let's continue with this idea of results.

Conflict Clarity And Decision Speed

Dr. Leah OH 39:46

And that's something I love. You mentioned that resolving personnel and leadership challenges, it really helps to drive profit. And so, Derek, I'm wondering in your experience, how does closing those internal conflicts faster directly impact uh impact a team's decision velocity?

Derrick Chevalier 40:03

Absolutely. Because listen, conflict clouds clarity, and a lack of clarity curtails outcome and results. So it's a direct connection to the bottom line because when? Because a lack of clarity creates inertia. When I'm not clear, if you're driving in the fog, if if it's clear out and you're driving down the road, you can drive at 100 miles an hour, you know, assuming there's no policeman. But you can drive a hundred kilometers, well, drive a hundred kilometers an hour and feel like you're going 100, right? Now add fog into that. Now drive at 100. Your risk of dying is much higher and of hitting something or hurting somebody else. So it's a direct quantitative reality that when there is a lack of clarity, there is inertia. And when there's inertia, everything slows down and we lose the focus on our objectives. And then people begin protecting themselves. So we go from a group focus on the achievement or attainment of an outcome to now I'm unclear about what I'm supposed to do or where I fit. So the first thing I do now is turn internal and figure out, well, then how do I protect myself? So we're now no longer a cohesive group looking to solve or resolve an issue or achieve an outcome. We're a bunch of individuals working under the same roof. That's yeah, that's it. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Leah OH 41:38

Yeah. And I love that the metaphor bringing in the fog, right? That's such a powerful visual to consider how we make those. And you brought up personal protection too, right? Where we recognize I need to take care of myself.

Derrick Chevalier 41:51

Yes. Well, well, what else are you going to do? I mean, if we're unclear about where we fit and what we're supposed to do, well, by definition, that's we're going to slow down. And that's going now. You've got a group of people who are all slowed down who are not certain about what they're supposed to do or where they fit. Well, if I'm not certain about where I fit in the group, then what choice do I have other than to think about, well, how do I protect myself while we're figuring it out? So what the what conflict clouds clarity and clarity creates inertia. Therefore, what I have to do is resolve the conflict because the cost of the conflict is greater than the the right than the benefit of removing it. Because in inertia, all that that's an end unto itself. So I know that I'm going nowhere until I do it. So whatever it costs me to clear the conflict is going to pale in consider in comparison to what happens if I don't, right? Exactly. For the organization and the people within it. So there's a direct and measurable cost in allowing conflict to drive the ship.

Dr. Leah OH 43:12

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, Derek, are my two final questions for you?

Final Advice Circumstances Do Not Dictate Outcomes

Dr. Leah OH 43:17

These are intertwined. This is the way we end all episodes of the communicative leader. So the first part is, you know, what is the pragmatic leadership or communication tip or challenge or advice for our titled leaders? And then the second part is, you know, what do you want to leave those employees across all ranks, all industries with?

Derrick Chevalier 43:36

Sure. So I think we kind of will go back and touch on that acronym of a title advice for a titled leader. And I think it goes back to put your people over your title and everybody else's. Right? Because your title, depending on how the size of the organization and the size of your head and your brain and your ego, often get into the way. Of the people and the relationships that have to drive it. So that that people over title, right? And then put the purpose for which we're working together over the people. And people can accept and appreciate that in the sense that now we want to get to the moon. Our biggest payoff is we land on the moon, right? Or whatever it is. And then along with that, we got a bonus and a this and a that. So that would be my that would be my biggest advice, which would be to put people over title, purpose over people, desired outcome over challenge. And then that final question of advice to all employees is advice I think about every day. And that is another axiom out of my own life experience and that of my clients. Circumstances do not dictate outcomes. Circumstances do not dictate outcomes. So whatever your title, whatever your position, wherever you are in your life, both in work and outside of work, whatever set of challenges that you're dealing with, whatever obstacles are in the way, think about this. And this is one, is not just an axiom, it's a statement of fact. Circumstances do not dictate outcomes. How do I know that? Because if they did, everyone born poor without opportunity or education would die poor without opportunity and education. Or everyone who comes out of a certain circum set of circumstances that you're in would have the same outcome and they don't. Yeah. Because circumstances do not dictate outcomes. People do. So the advice to employees is you do. You're responsible for understanding how to control and or manipulate, for better word, how to negotiate the circumstances, right?

Dr. Leah OH 46:03

Yeah.

Derrick Chevalier 46:03

Right. In order to drive the outcome and over and above to achieve the outcome that other people aren't getting. And so I would say that you need tools to do that. Where we are, if we're going to stand and assume that we can navigate all the issues and problems that we are with the tools that we have, if we could do that, we would already be doing it. So the recognition that what is missing is we've got a box full of experience and tools in our life, but we don't even know what's not in that toolbox. Right. And we clearly, there's not enough. And I'll do one anecdote. I was in, and I love the the the uh the uh Viking history and all that. So I was in, I was in, you know, just in that part of the world over the summer and in Copenhagen and all throughout that area. And I went to the play to the Viking Museum, right? So at the Viking Museum, they're actually building Viking ships with the same tools that they use to build them. And they have several of the ships that are sunken out there. So I go in the workshop and I see an entire wall full of dozens and dozens, if not hundreds, of very specific hand tools that are used to take a log and create a Viking ship. And I thought to myself, it must have been over hundreds of years as different logs would come in that a master craftsman would go, you know what? These tools that we have for this particular log, we don't have a tool that's gonna navigate or solve that problem. And they created another tool. So I thought to myself, I have no idea what most of those tools are. I wouldn't have even known that they existed, except that I'm here. I certainly didn't know that I was missing them in my box. So the idea is understand that you're not gonna see the tools in a box where they don't exist. So you have to make a commitment to it, and that's the great thing about your podcast, because it's a place to identify tools that you didn't know you didn't have. And then what happens is after that is those circumstances that do not dictate outcomes require that you take an action based upon what you learn.

Dr. Leah OH 48:28

Yeah. Thank you, Derek. One thing I want to raise up, and this has been a continued theme, is I love how you are learning everywhere you go, right? From your friends with the snakes to the Viking Museum. But it's so powerful because I think so many people think I can only learn at work, or I can only learn in school, or I only take this class. And that's not the case. And you're making, you know, I think in some ways it's even more powerful because it's your brain processing these things behind the scene, and you have those aha moments.

Derrick Chevalier 48:59

So thank you also for raising that up for us. Thank you. So that's great. You know what? I found it. I remember by asking the question, I remember asking the day I asked a question, I thought, I wonder if there is some way or some tool that will neutralize any objection. So, and then the idea of looking and reading and researching and you know, spending time online in the library, because I like to hold books and go, you know, I'm sure you do too. There's kind of like you get lost, and yeah, and well, just kind of mean that's what. And then suddenly I remember I went, oh my God, Venom, where are you coming up with that one? So every you never know while looking at a sunset or a cloud or like this. And let me let me say this one last. One of the most important things that that I know that in your spirit you would follow this. But one of the axioms that drives me in life, and that's part of evolved as well. I learned from Bruce Lee, the martial arts. So I love what he said: be like water. You put water in a cup, it becomes the cup. Right. And so everything that we learn allows us to fit in more cups and to be more like water in different circumstances. And so there's a joy about living and exploration that makes us alive if we want to. Whereas otherwise, if we just look around, we can be discouraged by what we see in front of us. Does not have to be that way. Right?

Dr. Leah OH 50:35

Yeah, yeah. Such a powerful reminder. Derek, this has been an absolute joy. I've really enjoyed this conversation. I've learned a lot. I have so many notes. I've been taking notes our whole conversation. So I know you're gonna leave our listeners with so many helpful tools. So thank you for sharing your time.

Derrick Chevalier 50:54

Thank you. It's a privilege. I love you're wonderful. I mean, people are listening to your podcast. You now have a new fan, so I'm I'm I'm definitely following and listening to see who else you have. But I think it all comes from you and your love of what you're doing and your own curiosity and joy and wisdom too. So thank you for the privilege of sharing with me, and maybe we'll get a chance to talk again.

Closing And Lead With Purpose

Dr. Leah OH 51:18

Yeah. All right, my friends, that wraps up our conversation today. Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose. I'm looking forward to chatting with you again soon on the Communicative Leader.