The Ego Audit: Leading with Self-Awareness from the Front Lines to the C-Suite with Dr. Ron Camacho

The fastest way to lose trust isn’t a bad strategy—it’s a bruised ego that stops you from listening.

In this episode, we sit down with North Charleston Chief of Police and FBI National Academy graduate Dr. Ron Camacho. We’re pulling back the curtain on the hidden “ego tax” that leaders pay every day through small, subtle communication choices that erode credibility and kill psychological safety.

Chief Camacho gets remarkably honest about why therapy—not tactical training—was his real ego check. He shares how confronting his own anger and blind spots transformed him from a "command-and-control" SWAT commander into a leader who understands that "many minds are better than one" is the ultimate tactical advantage.

In this conversation, we explore:

• The Ego Audit: The exact questions you should ask yourself before walking into any high-stakes meeting.
• The "Newest Voice" Advantage: How to create an environment where the best idea wins, regardless of rank or tenure.
• Empathy as a Tool: Why moving away from command-and-control isn’t "soft"—it’s how you actually win the community and the room.
• The Power of the Sincere Apology: Why owning your missteps—backed by real accountability—is the fastest way to raise your professional stature.

If you are ready to stop needing to be right and start leading with presence, this conversation will give you the language and habits you need.

Subscribe to The Communicative Leader and join the conversation.

What is one ego-driven habit you are going to challenge this week? Let us know in the reviews.

Transcript

Ego As The Hidden Barrier

Dr. Leah OH 0:00

Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Communicative Leader. I'm your host, Dr. Leah O. We often talk about leadership as a set of these external tactics, strategy, metrics, directives. But today's guest argues that the greatest barrier to effective leadership isn't out there in the market. It's sitting right here between our ears. Joining us is Dr. Ron Camacho, the Chief of Police for North Charleston, South Carolina, and a graduate of the FBI National Academy. With over 30 years of experience in high-stakes law enforcement, from commanding patrol operations in Pennsylvania to advising police forces in Afghanistan and Mexico, Ron has seen firsthand how trust is built or broken in the heat of the moment. He is a nationally recognized expert on emotional intelligence and the author of the upcoming book, Bring Ego to the Forefront. Today we're diving into the role of ego in communication, how to maintain a grounded leadership presence under extreme stress, and why self-awareness is the ultimate tactical advantage for any leader trying to build a resilient high trust team. Let's dive in and have some fun. Hello and welcome to the communicative leader, hosted by me, Dr. Leah O'Millian Hodges. My friends call me Dr. O. I'm a professor of communication and a leadership communication expert. On The Communicative Leader, we're working to make your work life what you want it to be. Ron, thank you for joining us today on The Communicative Leader. You know that you have spent over 30 years in high-stakes law enforcement from Pennsylvania to Afghanistan. And I'm wondering, what was the specific moment or kind of that ego check in your career that made you realize that self-awareness was a tactical necessity, not just a soft skill?

Therapy And The First Ego Check

Dr. Ron Camacho 1:59

Yeah, so I really didn't have a one of those self-check type situations. Therapy is where I got my self-check. Before that, when my ego was running wild, it wasn't, it wasn't catching that, you know, that it was it was running wild. So when I entered therapy is when I first got confronted that my ego was a huge issue, my anger was a huge issue issue. And that's when I really started working on myself and these problems. And I needed to work on the trauma to heal that so I can start working on myself and the ego. And there that started the journey way back in 2013. They started the journey on me, you know, working on this ego issue, you know. So, and then from there, I guess when I first became a chief and I started implementing these things and just being a lot more entering situations with a lot more compassion and openness and and empathetic, and then kind of being around a lot of my peers and watching them kind of do it the old school way and seeing that, wow, that's very different. And that's me, you know, a couple of years ago before I had this revelation before I went into therapy, and just seeing the the the contrast and then seeing some of my successes, seeing how how I was able to connect with uh my people and get them to go along this journey with me really kind of let me know, hey, uh it is important to make sure that we're self-aware. I always say there's nobody that's more critical on themselves than me. And I'm always looking at that mirror every day and making sure that who I see in that mirror is who's reflected to the people that I deal with every day, my officers, the community, and my family.

Dr. Leah OH 3:48

Yeah. And good for you, Ron. That's the hardest work, right? That self-work, that self-awareness. Like whatever other job we take on professionally, it is much easier in so many ways compared to that continuous self-work.

Dr. Ron Camacho 4:02

Yeah, definitely. Definitely.

The Ego Tax On Credibility

Dr. Leah OH 4:04

So I am so excited because you have an upcoming book, Bring Ego to the forefront. And in this book, you talk about the ego tax. And for those who haven't heard the term, I'm wondering if you could tell us how do leaders unknowingly pay this tax in their daily communication?

Dr. Ron Camacho 4:20

Yeah. When when you're communicating with your team and you're making it about you and not about them, it chips away at your credibility and you're chipping away at that trust. And over time, that just that chips away, that chips away, that chips away. And then you become your leadership ability just diminishes and you don't become an effective leader, right? Because it's about you and it's not about uh it's not about them, it's not about the organization, it's not about the team. So I have a saying that the day that I put people over myself, is my life changed exponentially. And, you know, just the the world opened up, and you know, I've done so many incredible things in my life that I don't have any more boxes to check, right? And now it's about making the people around me better, and it's about them and their successes. And when they succeed, I succeed. And it makes me very, very happy when others get better. So with that, it's always moving forward and thinking about them and pushing the message out about them and how we can make them better, and just putting yourself in the background and and not thinking about yourself. So as the leaders, you know, we we got to take our ego, we got to put that on the back and always think about the team, think about the organization, and think about our people before we think about ourselves. And sometimes that's hard, right? Younger leaders, you know, they're they're kind of you know those accolades, right? I was there at that point in time. We want those pats on the back. That's why it's so important to get on top of the ego so early in our career. Yeah. And, you know, so again, if we can start working on this early and start thinking about others early, we will see that connection earlier and see those successes earlier in our careers and our lives.

Dr. Leah OH 6:13

Yeah. And one thing you mentioned in this too, and I think on the surface, it feels counterintuitive because you think when you're putting others before you, you will, you will naturally get less, right? Whether it's accolades or successes. But when we're putting others first, then we tend to see our own successes, you know, amass more quickly than when we were going that other route, which is again counterintuitive on the surface, but rewarding in so many ways.

Dr. Ron Camacho 6:40

Yeah, my wife, my wife, who I couldn't have done a lot of this without her, and she's incredible. She says all the time, like, when these blessings come, these opportunities that have come my way, she's like, you know, this has happened and that has happened, and I've had this opportunity, that opportunity. And she's like, Where did this all all this stuff come from? It comes out of nowhere, but really it comes because I'm putting out this good energy into the universe and just continually, you know, offering myself to help people get people to the next level. And, you know, just with that positive attitude and and just really putting others before myself.

Dr. Leah OH 7:17

Yeah, yeah. I love that. Thank you for sharing that, Ron.

Crisis Listening And Many Minds

Dr. Ron Camacho 7:21

Yes.

Dr. Leah OH 7:21

So let's connect an overactive ego with listening or an inability to listen. So I'm wondering in your experience, if someone is kind of ego first, how does that distort their ability to truly listen? And then especially during a crisis, right, with the work that you do, what have you seen happen there?

Dr. Ron Camacho 7:41

Yeah, so the ego is telling you, I want to win, I have all the answers, you know, I'm right. And if you're going into a crisis with that mentality, you're not going to be able to listen to the many different opinions that you'll probably need in order to solve a crisis, right? When you go into a crisis, whatever that crisis may be, many minds are better than one mind. And I found that being hard, right? To get some people. I was a SWAT guy for 14 years. And we're kind of, you know, that alpha male type mentality, you know, our way or the highway type situation. And when I became the commander of the team, which is the SWAT and the negotiators, I went to negotiations school, right? I had to become a negotiator in order to understand the negotiation part of the school. That gave me a totally different perspective. And it gave me a totally different way of how to manage, you know, barricaded gunmen or, you know, different SWAT type situations. And it really told me to slow things down, right? And listen to the negotiators more, where before I was just being dismissive of them. So, and that was my SWAT ego, right? Oh, yeah. They're they're just limiting, they they they don't, they just want what they want. They just they're not listening to us. So the ego is telling you, hey, I'm right, you know, my way or the highway, you know, I have all the answers. And, you know, that could be dangerous when we're dealing with crisis. That can be dangerous in those type situations where you want many minds. You want you want those different opinions coming at you. The beauty about still being in this profession is that daily I get put in these situations where I'm dealing with this. So just yesterday, I was dealing with some community members, church members, on a sensitive subject having to do with juveniles. And we were confronted with a problem, an issue that we've been dealing with a lot. And it's been confounding. It's it's a very sensitive subject, and we've been trying to figure out a problem for a while. Excuse me, an answer to this issue for a while. And we've tried different methods to come up with the solution, but we haven't solved this issue. I left the this meeting with these community members, church pastors, and I came back to the station and I sat down with sergeants, lieutenants, majors, different ranks, and we sat down and we talked. And I listened to, you know, sergeants a couple years, you know, 10 years on the job, lieutenants 15 years on the job, lieutenants, a major 18 years on the job, and we sat down and we talked, right? And the guy who came up with the solution was the guy with the youngest amount of time, least amount of time, the young sergeant, right? 10 years on the job, 12 years on the job, he came up with the solution, which we're going to implement and which is gonna save me, you know, a lot of headaches. My mustache is gonna stay black for a little bit, and it's not gonna turn gray anymore, you know, and it's because it doesn't have to be me. Even though I'm the chief, it doesn't matter. He came up with a solution. And that's not the first time that he's come up with the solution. He came up with another great idea of us rotating sergeants through our internal affairs division so that they can get a taste of what internal affairs officers do or sergeants do, yeah, which is now being shared nationally, and that was him. So we're listening to, you know, these younger officers, and I'll take a great idea from anywhere, but we have to be able to be humble to listen to our younger officers. And that's the kind of organization that I lead, where people are not afraid to talk and people are not afraid to share their opinions. And one of the lieutenants in that office said, you know, many years back, he worked for a certain chief, and he said when he shared an opinion, under that chief, he was ostracized, and that was the last time he shared an opinion. Oh, yeah. You know, so under, you know, under my command, we share opinions, and I want to hear those opinions because many minds are better than one mind.

Dr. Leah OH 11:51

Yeah, exactly. And thank you. There's so much, so much insight in that response, Ron. And I think too, I think we forget that oftentimes is a titled leader, our work is accomplished through others. And if we're not giving them the tools and we're not empowering them, we're not listening to their voice, then you know, we're tying our own hands behind our back. So yeah, I really love that. Thank you for what you're doing. That's one of the biggest joys of having this podcast is hearing from true leaders like you who are doing these things that are changing the work lives because then that changes home lives, right? And that changes the conversations you're having in the community. So I really, really thank you for that.

Dr. Ron Camacho 12:34

Yeah,

From Command Control To Empathy

Dr. Ron Camacho 12:35

thank you.

Dr. Leah OH 12:35

So let's continue, you know, and this is, you know, part and parcel with your type of work. And I see that, you know, a lot of organizations, even traditional ones, are moving away from command and control environments to more community-focused leadership. And certainly you just shared that really powerful example of engaging and working, you know, lock and step with the community. But I'm wondering, Ron, from your experience or what you're seeing other counterparts going through, what's the hardest part of that transition, especially when it comes to like an inner or leader's inner dialogue, that conversation with themselves and trying to release grip of that command and control and embrace that community-focused approach?

Dr. Ron Camacho 13:19

So, again, you know, ego tells you, hey, I'm comfortable and I don't want to change, right? So when you have been doing something the same way over and over, you're comfortable there and you don't want to move into this new area. And I always say to my people, let's get comfortable with the uncomfortable. And during my process with them and developing my officers, they understand that I've been developing them, moving officers into different places so that they can become more well-rounded and more developed. You know, we have the hardcore guy who's been, you know, rocking and rolling on different specialty units. And this particular lieutenant, he is now in my neighborhood resource unit, right? And now he is engaging with the with the community, you know, and he recently came and thanked me because he is seeing another portion of this job and a very important portion of this job. If we lose the community, that's it. You know, we've failed, you know, and it's so important. Now, this job is the hardest that it's been in my 30 years. This this time period right now, the last five to eight years, has been the hardest in policing in my whole career. So he understands that. So another part of this is us integrating empathy into the way we do our jobs. Super powerful tool that sometimes we don't have enough of in policing. And I say that to say this. We are used to trauma, right? Things and talking about physical trauma, you know, psychological trauma. We're just around it a lot. And most citizens are not, right? No. And at times we have to make sure that we put ourselves in their shoes and kind of you know understand that we're desensitized to a lot of stuff. And that event that happened in their neighborhood, you know, while we're used to this huge city that we pollute police, that's very specific to them. That's very personal to them. And we have to be sensitive to that and we have to be respectful to that. And we have to make sure that we're, you know, understanding of that and not dismissive and kind of put our mindset into what if that was your neighborhood? What if that was your mother? What if that was your grandmother? What was that if that was your mother on that traffic stop? What was that if you was your your your mother that was you know the victim of a burglary and is you know, treating these citizens as just numbers, right? And you know, if we can put that empathy into there, deliver that high quality service, we will be able to, you know, uh win that community and and really start making some effective changes. So it's getting them to kind of get out of that, you know, that mindset of, hey, I I want to still stay in this, you know, command and control, as you would say, kind of mindset. Change it to, you know, this empathetic, compassionate mindset, yeah, get them uncomfortable, because it is uncomfortable to them, and get them thinking a different way. And what I've been able to do here is kind of, you know, my first year here, I taught classes on introspection and self-awareness and ego and got them comfortable with these subjects so that when we're transitioning to these different things, it wouldn't be foreign to them and they would understand what I'm talking about as we start implementing these things. And when we start talking about, hey, being empathetic, you know, exercises that they would have gone through in those classes where they what I'm talking about. So it's not new when I say, Hey, where was the empathy used in this in this instant incident? And they can say, Well, what are you talking about? No, they've been through a class what I'm talking about. They've given examples, they understand.

Dr. Leah OH 17:08

Yep. You're like, I know you know, because I taught you. Yeah. I was just thinking too, you know, that is such an important takeaway that getting comfortable with the uncomfortable, I think the hardest lesson, something trying to do with with my kids, with my students, that you're thinking, you know, in any role, right? If you're a physician and you recognize that this diagnosis, even though you've already delivered it to other times today, is earth-shattering to this patient. Or, you know, when I have students struggling with things, trying to remember how hard it was to be an undergrad, things like that. So I really appreciate what you're doing and what you're modeling there. And as you're saying, how that is changing the relationship with the communities you serve.

Dr. Ron Camacho 17:54

And even just the way we we talk amongst ourselves, how we deal amongst ourselves, how we're developing ourselves internally. So, so it's working internally and also externally as we deal with the community, as we're trying to improve the culture and change the culture here.

The Ego Audit Before High Stakes

Dr. Leah OH 18:11

Yeah. So, Ren, let's talk about the ego audit now. And, you know, I was hoping you could give us a couple of questions a leader can ask themselves before they're walking into a high-stakes meeting or situation to ensure they're leading with presence and not pride.

Dr. Ron Camacho 18:26

Yeah. So again, empathy, put yourself in their shoes, right? So I see this all the time when we're dealing with issues, you know, and that's happened to me. An example of that. There's many times where I've been into a meeting with some community members, and I really haven't seen the problem from where they're coming from, right? I don't understand where they're coming from. It just happened not too long ago. And I really had to step back, use some introspection, use some empathy, put myself in their shoes and look at the problem through their eyes, and really gave me some, you know, some awareness and some understanding. And I was a bit better able to understand the problem and better able to kind of address that problem. So huge way to kind of, you know, we don't do that, right? It's them, us, you know, hey, this is the way we think. You're thinking it that way, and we're gonna try to meet in the middle for some common ground. Sometimes we can't meet in the middle. So I'm a big one for kind of, hey, I'm gonna put myself in your shoes and try to see it. I do it a lot with my younger officers, right? And I teach my my uh my middle management, my sergeants, my lieutenants. Remember when you were two years on the job. Put yourself in that officer's shoes. How were you acting when you were two, three years on the ground? How much training did you have when you were two, three years on the ground? So that's the second part of that, right? See the problem through their eyes, and then remember when you were at that level, you know, and that will give you a huge insight into address this issue. So that's the way I answered that question. And we use that a lot here, and I say that a lot. And it's funny when I bring that up, a lot of my a lot of my people, my lieutenants and and and captains and majors, aha, wow, I didn't think about it that way. And and it it goes, it goes with the judgment, right? We're being judgmental. I wouldn't do that. Well, you're looking at it through your eyes of being 20 years on the job. Look at it through their eyes with being three years on the job. You're looking at it through all your training, look at it through their training, yeah, you know, and we're being able to really shift and kind of not be so confrontational and being able to address the stuff with a different type of way and be better at at solving those issues at that level.

Dr. Leah OH 20:53

Yeah, and that's such a good point because I think so often we judge ourselves on our intentions, but others we judge others on their behaviors, even if they're well, well, I didn't mean that, or this is what I was thinking, but it is important to remember when you look back, you know, we didn't know what we didn't know, right? I think about my undergrads. I mean, you don't even know what questions to ask, right? Because you're you're brand new, you're just getting started. So that is a helpful, a helpful reminder because it's not that they don't want to do well. A lot of times they they don't have the experience yet or the additional training yet.

Dr. Ron Camacho 21:27

I I just uh was dealing with my internal affairs. We were looking at at something, and my internal affairs guys and my training guys were like, yeah, this is in policy. And I'm like, okay, cool, but let's let's look back a little bit. You know, I see a couple of things. I see this young officer, you know, there's a hero type thing with this young officer here in this in the particular thing. And they're like, Okay, yeah, okay, we see that. And then I said, Here, there's a little tactical thing here. Can you see that? Yes, I can see that, you know. And it's all about teaching, right? Teaching and with respect and compassion. And and then I asked the lieutenant, both of them were lieutenants. I said, I want you to look at this through my eyes. Can you put yourself in my shoes? Right. When I have to go to a community meeting, or when I have to go speak to the mayor, or when I have to go speak, you know, to you know, the department at whole when or the media when I'm dealing with this. So can you put yourself in my shoes? I'm putting myself in your shoes. Can you put yourself in my shoes? You know. And then the light bulb went off, right? Which I love, right? I love when the light bulb goes off. And I also love like the next day when I get the visit from them and they're like, hey, that what you said resonated with me. Yeah. You know, and those are beautiful. I love these conversations where you know it hit the next day, they marinated with that and it really sunk in. And we have another further conversation with made it stick. And uh, that's what I live for. Those those conversations that you know that point made it there, and it's gonna stay in that memory bank forever.

Dr. Leah OH 23:04

Yeah, because it's like those are nice points of validation. And also I just keep thinking, I think so much, you know, if you take leadership and you strip it down, it means to influence. And you are doing such beautiful modeling for everyone around you that I I have no doubt when they're in similar situations, gonna say, Hey, let's think about it from their perspective. Can you try and think about it from my perspective? Right. So it's this generative gift that that keeps giving.

Dr. Ron Camacho 23:31

And let me say this, right? And this is another quote that I have in the book used in my training. Look, uh, we we win or I win the battle against ego about 85% of the time. There's 15% of the time that I don't win. Yep. You know, last week I had an incident where I did not win the battle against ego. I took something personal. We're all human, you know, and that happens. So not an angel, not perfect. You know, I just have done a lot of work in this, and I hold myself to a very high standard, but that's not perfect. And this is a continuous journey. And, you know, I recognized that something was perfect, did a lot of introspection, took a walk with the dogs, had the conversation with my wife, and uh regrouped, and then the next day was ready to go at it again and and understand what I did.

Dr. Leah OH 24:24

So yeah, and that's that's really powerful too, and reminding people and sharing that with people that yep, I stumble sometimes too. But here's what I do afterwards.

Dr. Ron Camacho 24:34

Yeah, 100%.

Dismissiveness That Breaks Trust

Dr. Leah OH 24:35

Yeah. So, Ron, we've already talked a little bit about trust, but I want to continue to think about this because we know that it's built or broken, kind of in the heat of the moment. And I'm wondering, what is one communication habit that you've observed that can erode trust in these high pressure teams?

Dr. Ron Camacho 24:53

When somebody is dismissive, you know, somebody's dismiss uh dismissive, incredibly disrespectful, you know, I think it's super important. Like I've just demonstrated that everybody's heard their opinions are respective, you know, even if, you know, somebody's opinion, like if it's way out there, you know, just bringing it in, maybe explaining why, you know, it won't work, you know, with respect, right? But when somebody is just totally dismissive, you know, and I have issues with somebody's like an obstructionist, right? Where they're just constantly putting up these barriers, right? And uh and that's the opposite of what I am, right? I'm a guy that's looking, you know, to go under the barrier, over the barrier, break the barrier, you know, and I've been successful because of that attitude. So and I've had talks with some of the leaders who have kind of shut down people when they've brought these ideas. I want my people to feel like I have an idea, I want to bring it up, you know. And we've encouraged even young, very young officers to bring forward ideas. I've had people as young as two, three years on the job come before staff to present ideas, you know, and I encourage that. And they feel proud. And, you know, they'll remember that for the rest of their careers. They'll feel like, wow, I can speak. And some of those ideas we've implemented, you know, whether it's something as simple as having a car marked up to uh for uh become a veteran's car or a recruitment car, you know, uh having it marked up specially, you know, specialty or the the the beginning of a special unit, you know, but they feel part of the team and they feel empowered and they feel they feel important, right? Yeah, which we all want to feel important, right? But being totally dismissive and just totally, you know, disrespected. I remember that feeling, and I hope that I never make anybody feel that way when I'm having those conversations. And there are times when, you know, I'm in some meetings and you know, with especially with community members, and there's some strong opinions about policing, and you know, we're getting beat up a little bit, and sometimes, you know, I interrupt and somebody's telling me to don't interrupt them. I catch myself, I apologize. I don't want to be that dismissive person. I want them to express themselves. So that's a huge thing. And that if their sergeants are like that, if their lieutenants are like that, you're just gonna erode that trust immediately and possibly forever the way you do it.

Dr. Leah OH 27:33

Yeah, and you point out that's not easy, right? Sometimes it's easier than others, and it's a practice, it's something that, you know, that muscle gets stronger the more we work on it and taking that time to I I think for a lot of folks it's thinking about the nonverbals as well. So it could be listening, but when we're really irritated, right? Or we're thinking this is nonsense, even though we're not gonna verbalize it. Sometimes our face, our posture is, so it's thinking about those things as well. But yeah, that's that's an important lesson. And you're right, once we're dismissed, that's a really hard feeling to come back from if we do at all.

Dr. Ron Camacho 28:09

Yeah. And I've had to learn about that, you know, especially my facial expressions. I can't play poker. You can read everything in my face. And that's something that I've had to work on with my face too, because I'm very proud of what we're doing here. I'm proud to be the chief of this department. I'm proud of my the work we're doing. And sometimes you get attacked, and sometimes you deserve it, sometimes you don't. And you know, but it's super important to let people say what they need to say and shut up and don't be so dismissive. And I tell you right now that I do that with my people, but now I'm learning to make sure that I I do that especially with the community and don't be dismissive. And I've learning put that into my toolbox, and that's something I have to work on hard.

Ego Traps Across Cultures

Dr. Leah OH 28:58

So yeah, yeah. So, Ron, I know that you've advised police forces internationally. And when we're I was getting ready for our conversation, I was thinking, you know, from your experience, do you notice these universal ego traps that you see across culture? Or are you seeing kind of the expression of ego changing based on context and environment?

Dr. Ron Camacho 29:21

Yeah, so it's funny. So I spent two different, there was two different times where I was in Mexico. So first time, 2011, I went down and I trained a SWAT team in Leon, Meco, one of the best times in my career. The second time I was running a training program for the State Department and I lived there for a year, and I would have been 2014 to 2015. And my touches with the Mexicans were very limited. I was mainly supervising the Americans there. So I'll go back to my time in Leon, Mexico, where I was actually training the team. Great experience, very humble. I learned that many of these officers who were not paid very well had two or three jobs to not be corrupt, you know. Very humble. And they were like sponges. You know, to this day, I'm Facebook friends with uh quite a few of them. They call me brofe for professor, right? I made some really good connections because even though at that point in time I was in my ego of my career, I was humble with them and I connected with them. I was doing something that I loved and had a really great time with them. So they were humble, they were sponges. I was having a great time doing that training. However, right, one of their chiefs of the department, this guy was an egomaniac, and he, you know, came, he wanted to mark his territory, and which is a typical, you know, this guy came out of central casting for what you would think a Mexican police chief slash kind of maybe somebody that was kind of corrupt would look like. And uh, you know, made us feel uncomfortable, made us feel he was dismissive, and you know, where everybody else in that whole place made us feel so welcomed. And I have great stories about my time there. And I was there a couple different times training the team. This guy was just so totally dismissive. It was just a bad taste in our mouth for and we only met him at a time, and it was just for maybe like an hour, and that was the day they graduated. So it didn't it would not ruin, but it was just like, you know, hey, this exists everywhere. And I'll tell you a story. We we trained the team for two weeks, and then we left, and then we had to come back. And during the time that we had we left, another American company came down to do some some training. And this guy trained their team, and they had a shoot house, right? And they were very proud of this this shoot house that they had. And this guy came down and like typical, what you would say, typical American tactical guy, yelling at them, which we never did, right? Yeah, total eagle maniac, kicked down the door, their SWAT, their shoot house, made them feel like crap, and just really, and then after he was done, I posted like when I was finished, I wrote an article about my time there and posted it. And then he he commented on that and he made a kind of a kind of a negative comment on that, you know. So he still couldn't, you know, let it go. Let it go. Right. And you know, but so here here there's ego all over the place. But um, yeah, so the Mexicans there were very good, very, very humble, but yet there's their commander who displayed the typical trappings of ego.

Dr. Leah OH 32:51

Yeah, yeah. And so this next question, Ron, kind of piggybacks on that.

Apologies That Build Stature

Dr. Leah OH 32:57

So I'm wondering how, you know, in your experience and your consulting, how do you coach a leader to apologize or admit a mistake in a way that actually increases their professional stature, their credibility, rather than diminishing it? Because I think that's the big fear, right? If I have to own this mistake, I'm less credible or I'm gonna be seen as less of a leader. Well, what do you what do you suggest there?

Dr. Ron Camacho 33:20

I'm constantly telling stories and telling my officers about my mistakes, right? That's what good mentors do, right? We show our officers the landmines, right, where they exploded so that they don't follow in that path so they can go around that and they don't have to, you know, step on those landmines. So many of the stories that I share share with my mentees or just the officers in general have to do with my mistakes and where things blew up in my face. And basically I'm saying, don't do what I did, stay away from that. And I don't think apologizing when it's from the heart is ever wrong, but it has to be from the heart. So, and you have to mean it and you have to take that accountability. It is disappointing, right? And this is why I'm I'm always harping on you better mean it. You know, I can't force anybody to apologize. I will never force anybody to apologize. That does not work. I am disappointed when I have this conversation in my office with somebody, and they admit they're wrong, and they admit they admit, well, they take accountability for their actions. And then they leave my office, and then I hear that, you know, they didn't do anything wrong, right? They got the they got the shaft, you know, they're the victim. Yep. And, you know, that shows me their character and it shows me they just don't understand leadership and that they have a lot more work to do, right? And so again, with me, I'm always apologizing. And there's been times where I've taken, I've shown them in public where I've apologized for actions on behalf of officers, you know, for stuff that's kind of gone viral in town hall meetings to the media where I've said we were wrong, you know, and I show them that. And they've seen me at town hall meetings, you know, in front of a group of a hundred, two hundred citizens, you know, answer questions for an hour and a half on a quote unquote hostile crowd, you know, and just have my integrity questioned. But handle that with grace and just, you know, take it, accept accountability, and you know, just move forward and do it the right way. So I try to do that with by example and also just kind of say, hey, this is what I've done, you know, this is what worked for me. I've had a pretty good career, you know, this is probably a best practice. Saying you're sorry, you know, admitting their mistakes is not a bad thing. Look at what I've done, you know, not a bad thing. But mean it. Don't say you're sorry, and then leave my law and say, hey, I did not mean that, because it means nothing, you know, if you do that. And you know, and that's been, you know, I've seen that multiple times in here. And it's sad, right? It's sad when you invest in somebody, you invest time, money, a lot of training, right? And then they just don't get it. And you know, that's part of it where you're not gonna help everybody. Not everybody's gonna the Kool-Aid, right? Yeah, and that's life, you know. So, but you can just keep on trying and keep on pushing your methods and keep on helping as many people as you can help.

Dr. Leah OH 36:38

Yeah, and I I love that when you were mocking us through your response, I was thinking about earlier when you're talking about, you know, looking at yourself in the mirror, right? And so if you identify as a leader and you strive to be a leader and accountable, and you know, we all make those mistakes, but then walking out of the office and being like, you're done with that, but that's not, I wasn't wrong, right? You've got to look yourself in the mirror and know that you chose to say one thing here to to the leader and another behind the leader's back. And what is that saying about your leadership, right?

Dr. Ron Camacho 37:11

Yeah, yeah, or lack thereof.

Dr. Leah OH 37:14

Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Ron Camacho 37:16

Unfortunately, over these last couple of years, I've used the word delusional a lot. Unfortunately. And it's I use it and I it's sad where I'm like, you know, don't be that person, you know, be honest with yourself, be brutally honest with yourself and have those, those, you know, those ego audits with yourself, right?

Dr. Leah OH 37:37

Yep.

Dr. Ron Camacho 37:38

Because you don't want to be that person who thinks, you know, you're everything and everybody else sees somebody totally different.

Dr. Leah OH 37:46

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Final Tips On Ego And Self-Awareness

Dr. Leah OH 37:48

So, Ron, I have two final questions for you. And these go hand in hand, and this is the way we end all episodes of the communicative leader. So the first part is, you know, what is the pragmatic tip or challenge or advice you want to leave our titled leaders with? And then the second part is what do you want to leave our employees of across all ranks in terms of that tip, challenge, or advice?

Dr. Ron Camacho 38:13

Sure. So uh work on your self-awareness and empathy. I think it's super important. We don't do that enough, right? Super important tools that we just don't do enough, right? That self-awareness and that empathy, right? And I think I've kind of beaten those horses to death throughout the throughout the podcast today, right? And the interview. Super important tools, very easy to do. And in the book, I talk about them extensively and give examples on how to achieve them and why they're so important. And I think I've given multiple, multiple examples of why they're so important. Just the last one with delusion, right? You want to make sure when you're looking at the mirror, who you see every morning is the same person that everybody else sees, you know, every day. You know, you don't want to see a knight, you know, or a queen, right? And then everybody else sees, you know, a court jester, you know. Yeah. Yeah. That's yeah. And again, unfortunately, this year, I've seen a lot of delusion and last year. I've seen a lot of delusion, and that's unfortunate, right? Mental health, mental, a lot of mental health stuff having to do with that, or denial, where some people need some therapy, right? And so open with my journey with therapy, right? Because I was that what back in 2013, before therapy, who I was looking in the mirror was not what everybody else was looking in the mirror, you know. And therapy changed my life, and I pushed that to everybody, you know. And the last thing I would say is, you know, I've been a boss, a lieutenant or above for 17 years, right? And a chief for 10. The last 10 years I've been a chief. Most of the problems that I encounter have some element of ego to it. And that's what motivated me to start, you know, doing research and start talking about this and start, you know, giving classes on this, and then eventually start writing a book about this because nobody was talking about this. Yes, there are some people, some famous people that mention this and they talk about this, you know, but you know, extensively going into this and giving you tools on how to address this. I didn't see anything like that. So that's why I started writing the book and giving people tools on how to address this, how to how to work on this. So think about it, right? For the leaders that are in here, think about the problems, personnel problems you have, or the conflicts you have within your life. Think about your sports teams or think about your family life, but mainly think about your career and the conflicts you have. You know, if you're a boss and you're managing people, or your interpersonal, you know, conflicts that you're having with your peers or you know, company to company, and it all has to do with ego, or at least 90% of it has to do with ego. So wouldn't it be good to start working on your ego, right? In order to kind of get a heads up on that. And then eventually, if your ego is good, then you can start working on others' egos. So now it's funny, in my organization, people come in and we have, you know, if there's somebody has an issue, they can come in and say, Chief, that was my ego getting in the way. That's music to my ears.

Dr. Leah OH 41:20

Right. Yep.

Dr. Ron Camacho 41:21

And then we've gotten past that problem, right? Gotten past that hurdle. And now we can start working tools to kind of work on that and then use. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the main thing that I'm saying here is hey, that is a big issue that we just don't talk about, right? We we we talk about discipline or you've broken these rules. And we don't, we're not looking at the ego portion. And I personally believe what from what I see daily, yeah, right. If we can get on top of that ego, we can take care of everything else.

Dr. Leah OH 41:53

Yeah. Ron, thank you so much. This has been so insightful. You've left us so many pragmatic tips and tools, you know, things that I'm going to revisit and be thinking about, and I know that are really going to be meaningful for our listeners.

Dr. Ron Camacho 42:08

Thank you very much for having me on. It's an honor. Appreciate it.

Dr. Leah OH 42:12

All right, my friends. That wraps up our conversation today. Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose. I'm looking forward to chatting with you again soon on the Communicative Leader.